D&D 5E Sharpshooter/Great Weapon Master and Why They Are Broken 101.

[Corwin]

Technically true but it is not going to happen that often. We did keep track of it once and any hit enabled by bless counted as damage for the cleric.

Well, with scientific methods like that, who needs anecdotes?

BY the mid levels bless was doing anywhere between 20-40 damage per round for a level 1 spell.

Bless doesn't do damage. So that can't be true.

We did something similar in regard to a Bard in 3.5 and discovered the bard was inflicting (indirectly) 150% of the parties damage. And you never know when you need to make a save and if players like having +1d4 to hit they love having +1d4 on a saving throw.

Oh, I see the confusion. You are talking about a different edition of the game. This is a 5e forum. Not 3.X. Also, FYI, bards don't get bless in 5e. So consider that little problem solved.

Most clerics also do not do much damage without resorting to a spell.

Weren't you just telling another poster how great a dragonborn war cleric is?

Bless does with a low cost of resources used.

More misunderstanding of what opportunity costs are. Were you aware that spell slots aren't the only opportunity costs associated with using bless. I can count at least four just off the top of my head: 1) spell slot, 2) having that spell prepared for the day, 3) takes an action to cast, and 4) concentration.

Test it out with a level 8-11 5 man party with a fighter in it. I recommend taking the healer feat (or someone in the party taking it) or even at low levels.

Tier 3 characters and *this* is what you find broken? The Healer feat and bless? Really?

By level 3-5 you can use bless in every single combat and still heal people.

I recommend you bring the concentration rules to the table. That may fix this always being able to have bless up "problem". If you've *never ever* had a cleric fail a concentration save, given how much you claim to play 5e, something at the table isn't working as intended.

Better yet see if you can get a thief to take the healer feat and take warcaster/resilient: con followed by alertness.

Are you of the opinion that those things make a group of PC's "broken"? Like, in actual "adventures" sense? Or just in a narrowly defined white-room scenario?

 

[Zardnaar]

Well, with scientific methods like that, who needs anecdotes?


Bless doesn't do damage. So that can't be true.


Oh, I see the confusion. You are talking about a different edition of the game. This is a 5e forum. Not 3.X. Also, FYI, bards don't get bless in 5e. So consider that little problem solved.


Weren't you just telling another poster how great a dragonborn war cleric is?


More misunderstanding of what opportunity costs are. Were you aware that spell slots aren't the only opportunity costs associated with using bless. I can count at least four just off the top of my head: 1) spell slot, 2) having that spell prepared for the day, 3) takes an action to cast, and 4) concentration.


Tier 3 characters and *this* is what you find broken? The Healer feat and bless? Really?


I recommend you bring the concentration rules to the table. That may fix this always being able to have bless up "problem". If you've *never ever* had a cleric fail a concentration save, given how much you claim to play 5e, something at the table isn't working as intended.


Are you of the opinion that those those things make a group of PC's "broken"? Like, in actual "adventures" sense? Or just in a narrowly defined white-room scenario?

As I said if you count the damage dealt by other PCs enabled by bless in effect that is the clerics contribution to the fight.

I also said most clerics. A war cleric is not to bad at dealing damage with the right feats, most of the others are middling to OK.

Sure it uses the concentration slot but out of the low level spells what else are you going to cast? Guiding Bolt for 14 damage? What other other low level spell clerics can cast with concentration are better than bless that is level 1?

Giving 3 people +d4 on saves and attacks seems like a better deal than attacking for 1d6+ strength.

At low levels the healer feat is way better than any spell a cleric can cast and at high levels it is in effect a lot of spell slots you can save.

As I said keep track of its enabled by bless especially if the -5/+10 parts of feats are being used. That is the clerics contribution to combat. Also keep track of any saves enabled by bless.

bless is not always the best call depending on the situation (guiding bolt rocks vs vulnerable to radiant damage) and there are situations where you might roll stupidly high or ACs are so low the bonus won't matter (then you used bless -5/+10). Bless is always good in every copmbat at every level, it just may not be the best thing to use all of the time and it does get competition for the concentration slot later on and from certain domains.

Resources like the spell slot used and prepping it are fairly minimal.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

6-8 is the recommended combat length.

Assuming you meant 6-8 encounters is the recommended adventuring day length, since your actual sentence isn't that - or even clear.

Your later point relies upon the system not forcing this 6-8 average as a hard truth that each and every day will have 6, 7, or 8 encounters - no other numbers possible. Yet this point requires it to be absolutely true, and for it to be impossible to ever have even as many as 9 encounters in a single day.

...I notice this rarely happens even with the official adventures.

Actually, you've noticed it rarely happens with your group when playing published adventures.

My group has frequently, and without what we consider any special effort, reached the 6-8 range of encounters in an adventuring day while playing published adventures.

...and/or is easily avoided anyway.

That shows a particular attitude, though. Not everyone is trying to avoid having more encounters in a day - in fact, some groups (I figure quite a few, since WotC seems to think they are the majority of groups) have their characters press on to more encounters in an adventuring day just because they can, and it makes sense to them as the characters have goals and are people and people with goals don't just sit around taking it easy like is required of parties that rest more often.

It was a moronic assumption...

No, it's just an assumption you don't like - that doesn't make it "moronic".

 

[Corwin]

Giving 3 people +d4 on saves and attacks seems like a better deal than attacking for 1d6+ strength.

With misleading comparisons like that, no wonder you believe what you do. You just compared a spell to a simple melee weapon attack. Your apple tastes nothing like an orange. Clearly that apple is broken.

 

[Zardnaar]

Assuming you meant 6-8 encounters is the recommended adventuring day length, since your actual sentence isn't that - or even clear.

Your later point relies upon the system not forcing this 6-8 average as a hard truth that each and every day will have 6, 7, or 8 encounters - no other numbers possible. Yet this point requires it to be absolutely true, and for it to be impossible to ever have even as many as 9 encounters in a single day.

Actually, you've noticed it rarely happens with your group when playing published adventures.

My group has frequently, and without what we consider any special effort, reached the 6-8 range of encounters in an adventuring day while playing published adventures.

That shows a particular attitude, though. Not everyone is trying to avoid having more encounters in a day - in fact, some groups (I figure quite a few, since WotC seems to think they are the majority of groups) have their characters press on to more encounters in an adventuring day just because they can, and it makes sense to them as the characters have goals and are people and people with goals don't just sit around taking it easy like is required of parties that rest more often.

No, it's just an assumption you don't like - that doesn't make it "moronic".

I'm fine with it on a personal level it just makes things like hexcrawls very hard to design and something 5E does not do well.

I think we hit 12-14 encounters one day. Once you hit level 5 or so wit multiple spellcasters in the party every round the spellcasters can do something great from level 3 onwards. One spellcaster casts bless, the other one lobs a fireball.

Most of your low level slots los a lot of oomph as you level up, bless does not along with shield. Bless gets better as you level up due to proficiency and stats increasing faster than monster ACs and multiple attacks coming online which bless benefits. Its more or less the only level 1 spell that auto scales.

For example you are level 7 and have used your higher level slots, what other level 1 or 2 cleric spell can compete with bless? And if you have a ranged encounter Spiritual Guardians is uselss, bless is not. As I said Bless is never bad.

 

[Zardnaar]

With misleading comparisons like that, no wonder you believe what you do. You just compared a spell to a simple melee weapon attack. Your apple tastes nothing like an orange. Clearly that apple is broken.

OK sure they can cast another spell what are they going to do? Cast a spell to deal marginally more than greatsword damage once?

Guiding Bolt 14 dmaage average
Cause Wounds 16.5

And both of those spells can miss.

Hold person vs blessing 4 people. Requires a humanoid, can whiff if they make their save (odds of bless having no effect over several rounds with 4 people is minimal).

Name a better level 1 or 2 spell that all clerics can cast (domains might make a difference) that is good in every single fight and situation. Such a spell has to automatically hit and if it is concentration remember bless including the caster makes it harder to disrupt than every other concentration spell as well.

What else are you going to do as a low level cleric instead of bless (that every cleric can do). Sure if you need to use holy word or hold person go for it there are situations where other spells are better but that is situational.

Any spell or effect you use is likely having the same draw back as bless expending a resource or requiring you to cast it. Spiritual weapon I suppose but that is equivalent to bless enabling a single hit per round or even a single -5/+10 hit.

And you never know if you may need to make a save either and that is on top of the 1d4 to hit.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

...it just makes things like hexcrawls very hard to design and something 5E does not do well.

I disagree - I've been running a hexcrawl in 5th edition and it has been working as well, if not better, than any hexcrawl I've ever run. And as for the "design" of it, I'm just using X1 - The Isle of Dread as published, trading in the nearest equivalent monster from the 5th edition Monster Manual, so the design is obviously not any harder now than it was back then.

I think we hit 12-14 encounters one day.

Then why did you say "By level 3-5 you can use bless in every single combat"? If you've had 12-14 encounters in one day, even once, how can you even believe yourself when you claim 6-8 spell slots is enough for "every single combat"?

Most of your low level slots los a lot of oomph as you level up, bless does not along with shield.

Yes, which spells are the good choices for using your lower level spell slots does change a bit as your character levels up - but that is a feature, not a bug, considering that it enables a caster to use every spell slot meaningfully while only having a limited array of spells to cast from.

Bless gets better as you level up due to proficiency and stats increasing faster than monster ACs and multiple attacks coming online which bless benefits. Its more or less the only level 1 spell that auto scales.

To address these statements in reverse order; No it isn't, and the reason you state bless gets better as you level is actually the reason why it doesn't - with higher proficiency and ability modifiers comes fewer rolls that fail, and thus fewer that fail by whatever the bless d4 rolled or less, and with more attacks per attack action comes less importance (from the game-play feel the player experiences point of view, which is the one that matters most) on each individual attack roll because missing once is only a complete failure if you can only attack once.

For example you are level 7 and have used your higher level slots, what other level 1 or 2 cleric spell can compete with bless? And if you have a ranged encounter Spiritual Guardians is uselss, bless is not. As I said Bless is never bad.[/QUOTE]

 

[Zardnaar]

I disagree - I've been running a hexcrawl in 5th edition and it has been working as well, if not better, than any hexcrawl I've ever run. And as for the "design" of it, I'm just using X1 - The Isle of Dread as published, trading in the nearest equivalent monster from the 5th edition Monster Manual, so the design is obviously not any harder now than it was back then.

Then why did you say "By level 3-5 you can use bless in every single combat"? If you've had 12-14 encounters in one day, even once, how can you even believe yourself when you claim 6-8 spell slots is enough for "every single combat"?


Yes, which spells are the good choices for using your lower level spell slots does change a bit as your character levels up - but that is a feature, not a bug, considering that it enables a caster to use every spell slot meaningfully while only having a limited array of spells to cast from.

To address these statements in reverse order; No it isn't, and the reason you state bless gets better as you level is actually the reason why it doesn't - with higher proficiency and ability modifiers comes fewer rolls that fail, and thus fewer that fail by whatever the bless d4 rolled or less, and with more attacks per attack action comes less importance (from the game-play feel the player experiences point of view, which is the one that matters most) on each individual attack roll because missing once is only a complete failure if you can only attack once.

For example you are level 7 and have used your higher level slots, what other level 1 or 2 cleric spell can compete with bless? And if you have a ranged encounter Spiritual Guardians is uselss, bless is not. As I said Bless is never bad.

[/QUOTE]

I ran Isle of Dread as well and are currently running Monkey Isle (X1 tribute) for a solo game with wifey. If you are running them as printed odds are you are only having 1 encounter per day if that.

How do you reconcile that with the 6-8 encounters per day thing along with the rapid 5E healing? I'm leaning towards the optional slow healing rule for hexcrawls but have not tired it yet.

I have also ran some of those adventures recently using B/X rules or clones of B/X they run very differently when your resources are a lot more limited healing being a prime 1 or a wyvern can outright kill you on a failed save.

That is why I said 5E is probably not really good for a ye olde hexcrawl at least in the way I would understand one (Isle of Dread, Quagmire, War Rafts of Kron etc).

In the 6-8 expected fight thing a cleric can pull that off between level 3-5. When we had the huger number of encounters it was an 8 hour session and we had 2 clerics and 4 spellcasters. Some fights ended due to double fireball from the light cleric/wizard. We had a triple fireball party once via wizard, cleric, and a bladelock.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Guiding Bolt 14 dmaage average
Cause Wounds 16.5

And both of those spells can miss.

Guiding bolt does 4d6 damage, not 14, and "cause wounds" is actually inflict wounds, which does 3d10 damage, not 16.5 - dice are not their mean rolls, and should not be misrepresented as such.

Also, these spells can crit - so potentially not applying by missing isn't as much of a downside as you make it out to be.

Name a better level 1 or 2 spell that all clerics can cast (domains might make a difference) that is good in every single fight and situation.

Bane, protection from good and evil, shield of faith, sanctuary, lesser restoration, prayer of healing and aid come to mind as being equally applicable - though not even bless is good in literally every single fight and situation (for proof, zombies - +1d4 to hit doesn't matter much if you already hit on a natural 3, and there are no saving throws forced by the creatures).

That's an unfair comparison. Bless only actually matters when the 1d4 bonus causes a failed roll to be a successful roll instead - that's not equivalent to "automatically hit". It is closer to, but not exactly, equivalent to a spell that works 20% of the time - so anything which has an effect that occurs with at least a 20% chance could be comparable, depending on the particulars of the effect.

What else are you going to do as a low level cleric instead of bless (that every cleric can do). Sure if you need to use holy word or hold person go for it there are situations where other spells are better but that is situational.

You answer your own question - what else you are going to do is whatever the situation calls for, which you already know isn't always bless.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

The quote broke on this one, and I am too lazy to figure out how to fix it. Sorry if the formatting is a little confusing.

"If you are running them as printed odds are you are only having 1 encounter per day if that."

Yes - except once the party finds a dungeon-like thing to explore.

"How do you reconcile that with the 6-8 encounters per day thing along with the rapid 5E healing?"

I don't - there is no reason or need to reconcile anything. The party has an encounter and it takes up a small amount of resources because the players don't try to "go nova" with the excuse that they probably aren't facing more encounters that day because they know they don't actually know that - between wandering monster chances a few times each day, and during each rest, and potentially finding some lair/nest/dungeon/etc. to explore, they could have more than they are guessing.

As for the "rapid healing" issue - there isn't one. If I were running the adventure in the rules it originates, the party would be full-healing every night by way of magic, and they'd still get their spells back the next day.

"That is why I said 5E is probably not really good for a ye olde hexcrawl at least in the way I would understand one (Isle of Dread, Quagmire, War Rafts of Kron etc)."

And I'm telling you again, I disagree - there are no meaningful differences between the old-school game and 5th edition as pertain to hex crawls in the specific, so 5th edition handles them quite well.

"In the 6-8 expected fight thing a cleric can pull that off between level 3-5. When we had the huger number of encounters it was an 8 hour session and we had 2 clerics and 4 spellcasters. Some fights ended due to double fireball from the light cleric/wizard. We had a triple fireball party once via wizard, cleric, and a bladelock."

This reads as a non-sequitur, but I am choosing to assume it was meant to be in response to me asking how you could say "every single fight" when knowing that the number of spell slots a 3rd to 5th level character has is smaller than the number of encounters you knew to be possible in a day:

You are rambling - the things you are saying don't even convey any particular meaning to me, and I definitely do not know more now about how the "every single fight" claim and knowledge of a 12-14 encounter day live in harmony in your mind than I did before you said this. It appears you have decided to amend "every single fight" to being just the obviously true claim that a character with 6-8 spell slots of at least 1st level can cast the same 1st-level spell 6-8 times in a day if they felt like it, but I'm not even sure that you meant to do that.