D&D 5E Sharpshooter/Great Weapon Master and Why They Are Broken 101.

[shoak1]

You know it gets kind of difficult to wade thru these threads for useful stuff in the midst of all the rhetoric and devolving minutia discussed. Nonetheless I have done so in a number of these threads, and there is useful info to be gleaned on both sides of the aisle.. Here is a summary of what I have found splashed with my view regarding relevancy:

Relevant points for GWM/SS NOT being OP:
1) The Math. You don't get +10 damage, stop saying that. When you break down the -25% hit chance, and the comparison w/+1 ASI, you're going to get a moderate boost that will rarely exceed +4 avg.dmg per swing, and will prob.avg. +2 dmg.in the real world of 6-8 CR appropriate encounters per day.
2) Mitigation doesn't change The Math. Unless you pile on so many buffs that you would hit on negative numbers pre-penalty, the penalty is gonna hit you. One caveat: SS/archery synergy can attain this level of mitigation and SS is therefore a more real threat of being OP.

Relevant points for GWM being OP:
1) Low Hanging Fruit. Its easy to make a very efficient combo out of GWM. Too easy. To be honest, I see having one of them in the party is a must for a well rounded party.
2) It's Boring to not have other good choices. The feat list sucks when it comes to combat maximization. Having to have a SS or GWM in every party is not fun - but it really is necessary from a powergaming standpoint.

Irrelevant points in no particular order:
1) Combat is only part of the game. So what? We are comparing combat feats vs combat stat increases. Maybe if combat is a minor part of your game you should spend your time in threads like "Linguist - the best feat since Friend to the Elves!"
2) Its only a problem for min-maxers/power gamers. You're right here. But admitting you are not a min-maxer disqualifies you from assessing balance issues, since you either don't care much about such issues, or don't seek out exploits. Either way, any official changes that could come to these feats wouldn't really affect you then, would they? And who better to balance a combat feat than a min-maxer?
3) Just make the monsters harder. Silly point. I shouldn't have to balance the game by changing CR challenges.
4) Its not a problem at my table because of xyz! So what? The rest of us don't play w/ xyz.
5) Math is subjective! No its not. If you think it is, go hug Michel Foucault and stay out of analysis threads.
6) You can wipe out the -5 penalty w/a +5 buff to hit! No, you can't. You will just be changing the 5 extra numbers you will miss on.
7) GWM is super OP because if I have this one particular combo I rule!!!! Yeah, but then you don't have some other super combo. And in any case maybe the DM has thought of a super deadly combo...
8) GWM is OP because you get +10 damage, cleave, and BA on crits!! You don't actually get +10 damage, cleave just helps mitigate the overkill, and BA on crits is a very minor damage boost on average.
9) Overkill mitigates the benefits of GWM. Nope - that's why they added cleave into it. Plus, mobs in 5e are big bags of hp, and don't go down quickly to great sword swings when level appropriate.

So is GWM/SS OP? I think SS is, GWM isn't. But I resent both feats because they make focus be on bows and big weapons. Bad design.

 

[Flamestrike]

Is it? What about all the times your roll succeeded before needing the +d4? Or missed by more than the +d4 could compensate? Is it still *always* good? I'm not sure you quite understand how math works in D&D nor the concept of opportunity costs.

Exactly.

What about when the cleric is surrounded by half a dozen 20hp mooks? Spirit guardians is strictly better in this circumstance.

If youre mixing up your encounters, no one tactic should stand head and shoulders above any other.

 

[Flamestrike]

I'm fine with it on a personal level it just makes things like hexcrawls very hard to design and something 5E does not do well.

I think we hit 12-14 encounters one day. Once you hit level 5 or so wit multiple spellcasters in the party every round the spellcasters can do something great from level 3 onwards. One spellcaster casts bless, the other one lobs a fireball.

How on earth are you getting a bless and fireball off in many encounters with a 12-14 encounter adventuring day?

Even with a party chock full of casters, youre probably not seeing more than a spell or two per encounter, and then a heap of cantrips.

 

[Zardnaar]

How on earth are you getting a bless and fireball off in many encounters with a 12-14 encounter adventuring day?

Even with a party chock full of casters, youre probably not seeing more than a spell or two per encounter, and then a heap of cantrips.

3 level 7 casters have 15 fireballs per day if they want them.

We had a bladelock, light cleric, lore bard, tempest cleric, Paladin (?), Fighter IIRC. It was 4 primary casters inc 2 clerics. 5/6 cast spells in some way shape or form.

Or it might have been lore bard, wizard, light cleric. We had 3 casters with fireballs anyway + hypnotic pattern, call lightning, haste etc for those fights where fire was not good.

Obviously they did not fireball every encounter but the option was there.

 

[Flamestrike]

3 level 7 casters have 15 fireballs per day if they want them.

So whats your problem with fighters and GWM then?

We had a bladelock, light cleric, lore bard, war cleric, fighter and Rogue IIRC. Might have been a tempest cleric. It was 4 primary casters inc 2 clerics,

This indicates to me your campaign favors (or tends to feature) shorter adventuring days and more opportunities to nova.

 

[Zardnaar]

So whats your problem with fighters and GWM then?



This indicates to me your campaign favors (or tends to feature) shorter adventuring days and more opportunities to nova.

Not really as I said level 7 PCs with 4 casters is 20 level 3 and 4 spells and some of those casters could hold there own in combat.

This was just after 5E landed the only non spell caster was a champion fighter.

I think I got 2 parties mixed up.

Champion Fighter
Lore Bard
Diviner Wizard
War Cleric
Tempest Cleric

The next party I think had the 3 casters at one point, the nova option was there and I think we switched to a valor bard over a light cleric to make the DMs job easier.

Another party had a Bladelock, Favoured Soul (tempest domain), some other wizard, and a bard and ended up with 5/6 members casting spells. Note most of the 5E classes cast spells. The fighter 1/Warlock XYZ could fight and cast fireball and use eldritch ray as the fighter dip fixed the MAD issue they have.

 

[Flamestrike]

Champion Fighter
Lore Bard
Diviner Wizard
War Cleric
Tempest Cleric

4 x long rest classes and one short rest dependent class. Pretty evenly balanced though.

You really need to push the 6-8 encounter [2 short rest] paradigm on them.

Assuming 7th level:

[FONT=&quot]Easy: 1750 XP+[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Medium: 3750 XP+[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hard: 5500 XP+[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Deadly: 8500 XP+

So around 5500XP is [medium/hard].

Here is a fairly 'standard' adventuring day:

2 x Air elementals (2 x CR 5; 5,400 XP)
1 x Orc war chief, 1 x Orc eye of Gruumsh, 2 x Orogs, 6 x Orcs (not multiplied) (1 x CR 4, 3 X CR 2, 8 X CR 1/2; 5,500 XP) - add chain mail to Orcs, increase AC to 16, add full plate to Orc boss, increase AC to 18
3 x Ettins (3 x CR 4; XP 6,600 XP)
[Short rest]
4 x Displacer beasts (4 x CR 3, 5,600 XP)
1 x Young red dragon (CR 10; 5,900 XP)
[Short rest]
1 x Mage, 1 x Gladiator, 8 x bandits (not multiplied) (1 x CR 6, 1 x CR 5, 8 x CR 1/4; 6,350 XP) add counterspell to Mage, give shields to bandits, increase AC to 13 and add multiattack.
1 x Rhemorazz (CR 11; 7,200 XP)

Just bracket the above with a timed quest [princess captured by Mage, PCs have 5 hours till midnight to get to her and save her or else bad thing X happens] and you're set.

Synopsis: Princess Macguffin has been captured by the notorious Martin McDastardly and his hired goon henchman. The PCs are hired to track them down and stop them before they sacrifice her at midnight... in just 5 hours time. Some research in town tells the PCs that McDastardly is holed up in a nearby ruin, 1 hours ride from the town. On the way to the ruin, the PCs are waylaid by two summoned Air Elementals in a fog storm. Once this threat is dealt with, they encounter stiff resistance in the ruin in the form of McDastardly's hired Ettin and Orc minions, and his captured Displacer Beast pets.

As they are mopping up from these encounters, a Red dragon swoops from the sky, attracted by the carnage! The PCs must deal with it, or maybe even forge an unlikely alliance with the beast.

Entering the ruins the PCs are ambushed by Mcdastardly and his hired goons. As they rescue the princess, and make thier way back to town, the ground shakes and vast creature bursts forth, ready to devour them all in its giant gullett. The PCs must protect the princess, and defeat the beast before it lays waste to the town!

Im not seeing GWM being a problem in the above advanture that I made up in all of 5 minutes.[/FONT]

 

[Zardnaar]

4 x long rest classes and one short rest dependent class. Pretty evenly balanced though.

You really need to push the 6-8 encounter [2 short rest] paradigm on them.

Assuming 7th level:

Easy: 1750 XP+
Medium: 3750 XP+
Hard: 5500 XP+
Deadly: 8500 XP+

So around 5500XP is [medium/hard].

Here is a fairly 'standard' adventuring day:

2 x Air elementals (2 x CR 5; 5,400 XP)
1 x Orc war chief, 1 x Orc eye of Gruumsh, 2 x Orogs, 6 x Orcs (not multiplied) (1 x CR 4, 3 X CR 2, 8 X CR 1/2; 5,500 XP) - add chain mail to Orcs, increase AC to 16, add full plate to Orc boss, increase AC to 18
3 x Ettins (3 x CR 4; XP 6,600 XP)
[Short rest]
4 x Displacer beasts (4 x CR 3, 5,600 XP)
1 x Young red dragon (CR 10; 5,900 XP)
[Short rest]
1 x Mage, 1 x Gladiator, 8 x bandits (not multiplied) (1 x CR 6, 1 x CR 5, 8 x CR 1/4; 6,350 XP) add counterspell to Mage, give shields to bandits, increase AC to 13 and add multiattack.
1 x Rhemorazz (CR 11; 7,200 XP)

Just bracket the above with a timed quest [princess captured by Mage, PCs have 5 hours till midnight to get to her and save her or else bad thing X happens] and you're set.

Synopsis: Princess Macguffin has been captured by the notorious Martin McDastardly and his hired goon henchman. The PCs are hired to track them down and stop them before they sacrifice her at midnight... in just 5 hours time. Some research in town tells the PCs that McDastardly is holed up in a nearby ruin, 1 hours ride from the town. On the way to the ruin, the PCs are waylaid by two summoned Air Elementals in a fog storm. Once this threat is dealt with, they encounter stiff resistance in the ruin in the form of McDastardly's hired Ettin and Orc minions, and his captured Displacer Beast pets.

As they are mopping up from these encounters, a Red dragon swoops from the sky, attracted by the carnage! The PCs must deal with it, or maybe even forge an unlikely alliance with the beast.

Entering the ruins the PCs are ambushed by Mcdastardly and his hired goons. As they rescue the princess, and make thier way back to town, the ground shakes and vast creature bursts forth, ready to devour them all in its giant gullett. The PCs must protect the princess, and defeat the beast before it lays waste to the town!

I'm not seeing GWM being a problem in the above advanture that I made up in all of 5 minutes.

Your encounters are what they would call "easy" I was throwing things like 8 Ogres at them, 4 hill giants, a pair of Dragon, 40 kobolds, heap of gladiators, 3 fire giants,, 4 golems thing like that.

They chopped there way through 7 deadly encounters in a row, one fight I think I went 3 or 4 times over the xp budget for a deadly encounter.

The things they did not like was CR3 NPCs with counter spells or getting hit with multiple spell effects such as fireballs. Deepdns on the group as they have had things like Oath of the Ancients Paladins or Nature Clerics and absorb element spells.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

3) Just make the monsters harder. Silly point. I shouldn't have to balance the game by changing CR challenges.

It is not doing anything but what the DM always must do to choose enemies that happen to trend towards higher AC, and higher AC monsters are not necessarily of different CR given the way that CR is an average of not just the defensive traits of AC and HP, but also an average of defensive and offensive capability.

What is a "silly point" is claiming that there is some special clause that kicks in when a character takes a feat that means the DM has to "balance the game" in some way that they weren't already doing so - the DM is already choosing what monsters the party faces, even if choosing a published adventure to run (because it is a choice to do that, and a choice to not make alterations), so nothing is any different.

 

[Flamestrike]

Your encounters are what they would call "easy" I was throwing things like 8 Ogres at them, 4 hill giants, a pair of Dragon, 40 kobolds, heap of gladiators, 3 fire giants,, 4 golems thing like that.

they chopped there wy through 7 deadly encounters in a row, one fight I think I went 3 or 4 times over the xp budget for a deadly encounter.

There is no way for a party of standard point buy 7th level PCs that those encounters are 'easy'. They all present a moderate resource drain that should (by the time the 7th encounter is triggered) have them very low on spells and resources indeed.

The Remoraz alone deals over 50 damage at +11 to hit with swallow whole (has 200 odd HP at AC 17), and they have to fight that after dealing with 6 encounters, including with a mage (with fireball and counter spell), a dragon (breath weapon and flight), several orcs (including a caster), ettins, displacer beasts etc.

Assuming you run the encounters appropriately.

You describe the Remoraz bursting out of the ground and roaring, you place the miniature 20' away from them on the board and say 'roll initiative'. On its turn it moves to a PC and eats him or her.

7th level clerics fully healed are on what... (assuming Con 12) 45 HP at an AC of 18ish? Barring some pretty cruddy luck, it eats a PC each turn. Its immune to fireball.

In my games (with very experienced players and optimised PCs) they would be challenged.

Am I missing something here? Whats the magic item load out on this group, and are you letting them roll stats?