D&D 5E Totally underwhelmed by 5e bladesinger, am I missing something?

[Chaosmancer]

It's a good discussion but I don't get why bing blind for one entire round is better than fight agaist mirror image, it's not only get disadvantage in the attack, all enemies will attack you with advantage. And in the next round he'll need to close his eye again, since the mirror images still there.

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Part of the original proposition was to declare you open your eyes at the end of your turn, so that you do not suffer advantage attacks against you.

Partially why I'm against it, since it really is a bunch of cheese to try and play it that way. "I cancel your spell with a strategy I would never otherwise use, and end that strategy early enough that it has no negative consequences

 

[zaratan]

Part of the original proposition was to declare you open your eyes at the end of your turn, so that you do not suffer advantage attacks against you.

Partially why I'm against it, since it really is a bunch of cheese to try and play it that way. "I cancel your spell with a strategy I would never otherwise use, and end that strategy early enough that it has no negative consequences

All monsters with the option of "close your eyes at beginig of you turn" state that you will only open at the start of your next turn. Because your turn represent your 6 seconds of the entire round.

So, RAW don't work that way. Open your eyes at the end of your turn is just an unbalanced house rule.

 

[Helldritch]

It is said in the spell that the images reacts exactly like the caster. They do what he does. That includes making sounds, moving, speaking and whater else is needed to confuse the viewer into striking the wrong target. So nope, closing your eyes won't help you.
True seeing will.

I think I need to clarify the little parts in red.
By closing your eyes you bypass the spell in way but it is a worst trade off than it seems.
You now attack with disadvantage and spell attacks (as well as any other kind) are now made against you with advantage. A simple shield spell will potentially foil all your attacks and crittical strikes are a bit more likely to happen to you.

As for the 12 magic missiles launching...
No you won't see 12 magic missile going from the hands of all images but that won't help you in any way. The switch between the real wizard and the false ones is making you hesitate to believe what you really saw; not unlike that game with four cups and a ball. Where's the litte ball? Hard to say. It is even harder with the spells as some images pass through to mage and the mage passes through some of his images as well. So which one cast the spell?

Mirror image has always been a great spell and it never was that easy to get rid of it. (at least for a non mage)

 

[Warbringer]

Re closing eyes - turn is just a useful artifact for game play.

Close your eyes at my table its for the whole turn (so affects AC and God help you if he creature notices). Also for fun, you have to do it as a player until the round is over

 

[neogod22]

Yes.



No.

"A creature is unaffected by this spell if it can't see, if it relies on senses other than sight, such as blindsight, or if it can perceive illusions as false, as with truesight."

Three very distinct conditions.

1) Can't See
or
2) Relies on something that is not sight
or
3) Has ways to percieve illusions

Only one needs to apply.



Blindfighting and Tremor Sense... Such old edition memories .
About the "you have already been tricked"... And so? If i become blind, i still "see" more than one wizard? Do i see a wizard at all? I can't see, so i do qualify for immunity. "You have already been tricked" is no argument. The spell has not been cast on me. It simply creates 3 images and tricks one of my senses - sight - with continuosly shifting images. If i can't see the images, i'm no longer tricked.



WHAT? No! The images simply mimic the gestures of the caster, there are no 12 missiles appearing. The spell effects are not part of the caster. This yet again does not allow anyone to understand who is what, since shuffling prevents recognition instantly. Unless you happen to not be able to see or blindsight or truesight or any other condition that applies.

Mind you - i'm not saying that YOU should allow someone to close their eyes as a valid strategy. But it's undeniable that if you close your eyes you can't see, and that Mirror Images does not affect those that can't see. Everything else i've said it was always preceded by "i would rule" or "i would allow". Or closing with a "for me".

By the way: Bladesinger FTW (a pretty pathetic and sad attempt to go back to what this thread is about...)
Would you allow non-Elf or non Part-Elf Bladesingers in your campaign? Yes/No/Why?
Personally, i would allow them. Not that this has ever come into question on any table i played/dmed... Since the only person i've ever seen kicked out from a table was playing a bladesinger. And that person is known to all those i play with. And bladesinger have since aquired some sort of "laughable status" and nobody seems to want to play them (but not the person mind you - only bladesingers).

I've already discussed everything you've said in previous posts. But you disagree with me that if a creature closes his eyes after it's seen the illusions that it should still be effected by the spell. If you saw 4 ppl standing in a group and decided to close your eyes and try and strike at them, you don't get clarity as in which is the real one, the 4 images are still burnt into your mind and you're striking at something. The wizard can still roll his die is what I'm saying.

Tremorsense and Blindfighting are both in this edition, several monsters have one or the other, and if you've played the Elemental Evil campaign, the Earth guy's war pick grants Tremorsense to its owner. Rangers at High enough level gets Blindfighting.

Would I allow non-elven Bladesingers in my campaign? No, because it's an elite class that can be seen as like a special forces to elvenkind. They will never share such a secretive art to outsiders, just like we don't share our best military secrets to foreign governments. Even in the training, it says that the elf would only teach one student. It doesn't specify at a time, or within their lifetimes, but I guess that's up to the DM to decide.



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[ThePolarBear]

I think I need to clarify the little parts in red.

...

Mirror image has always been a great spell and it never was that easy to get rid of it. (at least for a non mage)

Ah ok a simple misunderstanding. Yep i agree that by closing your eyes you would get the shorter end of the stick. But still could be an useful tactic in particular circumstances (or if you simply want to abuse the system, like shooting at long range. - not that as a DM i would let it happen, just to be 100% honest )

I've already discussed everything you've said in previous posts. But you disagree with me that if a creature closes his eyes after it's seen the illusions that it should still be effected by the spell. If you saw 4 ppl standing in a group and decided to close your eyes and try and strike at them, you don't get clarity as in which is the real one, the 4 images are still burnt into your mind and you're striking at something. The wizard can still roll his die is what I'm saying.

Yeah, i do not agree. It does not seem fair to me, but you still can do what you want at your table. But let me try once again to change your mind:
Would you still let the wizard roll if Darkness fell over the wizard but not the other guy? Other guy would still be "blind" in regards of the wizard. He would still not be able to see him. The Other guy is not try to "cheat" the wizard. The wizard would be gaining an advantage that, rulewise, should not be there if is still rolling his dice.
And what if the wizard stepped just barely in heavy obscurement? What if someone successfully casted Blindness on Other guy?

Pretty much the only difference here is that "i close my eyes" would be volontary, while everything else would not.

Would I allow non-elven Bladesingers in my campaign? No, because it's an elite class that can be seen as like a special forces to elvenkind. They will never share such a secretive art to outsiders, just like we don't share our best military secrets to foreign governments. Even in the training, it says that the elf would only teach one student. It doesn't specify at a time, or within their lifetimes, but I guess that's up to the DM to decide.

I meant more mechanics than theme here. As a reflavour or something else. But i can see that if you love the flavour so much you might not want to change it

Tremorsense and Blindfighting are both in this edition, several monsters have one or the other, and if you've played the Elemental Evil campaign, the Earth guy's war pick grants Tremorsense to its owner. Rangers at High enough level gets Blindfighting.

Tremorsense is still a thing in 5E.

Yup my bad. I can't find Blindfighting tho. Is that in the UA version of the ranger?

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Yup my bad. I can't find Blindfighting tho. Is that in the UA version of the ranger?

It's been decades, but the Blindfighting I'm familiar with was a nonweapon proficiency which halved the penalty for fighting in darkness. 5E has a way to sort of halve the penalty for fighting in darkness--it's the Alert feat. It eliminates the defensive penalty which retaining the offensive penalty.

 

[neogod22]

Ah ok a simple misunderstanding. Yep i agree that by closing your eyes you would get the shorter end of the stick. But still could be an useful tactic in particular circumstances (or if you simply want to abuse the system, like shooting at long range. - not that as a DM i would let it happen, just to be 100% honest )

Yeah, i do not agree. It does not seem fair to me, but you still can do what you want at your table. But let me try once again to change your mind:
Would you still let the wizard roll if Darkness fell over the wizard but not the other guy? Other guy would still be "blind" in regards of the wizard. He would still not be able to see him. The Other guy is not try to "cheat" the wizard. The wizard would be gaining an advantage that, rulewise, should not be there if is still rolling his dice.
And what if the wizard stepped just barely in heavy obscurement? What if someone successfully casted Blindness on Other guy?

Pretty much the only difference here is that "i close my eyes" would be volontary, while everything else would not.



I meant more mechanics than theme here. As a reflavour or something else. But i can see that if you love the flavour so much you might not want to change it





Yup my bad. I can't find Blindfighting tho. Is that in the UA version of the ranger?

Well with darkness and blindness it's the same as the wizard going invisible. You can no longer target a creature you cannot see. If you were in melee range, you can take a swing (with disadvantage) if you think the target is in the same spot, but if you had already seen the illusion before the wizard went out of your sight, then the wizard will still roll because you're still targeting what you think are 4 wizards(if the wizard is in the same space that is being attacked). Once the wizard moves, all attacks on empty spaces automatically fail. So the question is do I attack what I perceive to be 4 wizards, or do I blind myself and attempt to attack a space where I once saw 4 wizards?

Blindsight is on page 8 in the monster manual, the first under special senses, tremorsense is on page 9.

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[Mort]

Most of the bladesinger melee options being discussed in this thread (shield, mirror image, blur for example) are all things a low to mid level eldritch knight can also easily do.

What are some mid-high level melee options the bladesinger has, not available to the eldritch knight?

I'm asking about melee options, obviously the bladesinger can just revert to standard caster tactics too.

One obvious one, access to contingency - which can significantly reduce buffing time or greatly enhance exit strategies.

 

[neogod22]

Most of the bladesinger melee options being discussed in this thread (shield, mirror image, blur for example) are all things a low to mid level eldritch knight can also easily do.

What are some mid-high level melee options the bladesinger has, not available to the eldritch knight?

I'm asking about melee options, obviously the bladesinger can just revert to standard caster tactics too.

One obvious one, access to contingency - which can significantly reduce buffing time or greatly enhance exit strategies.

At higher level, there aren't many defensive spells or spells that require the wizard to touch an opponent since wizards normally don't want to be in melee combat. While an EK might be able to get shield, he is very limited on spells outside of evocation and abjuration, and his spell progression is so slow. What comes to mind, Vampiric Touch is the highest level touch spell and that's only 3rd lvl. Polymorph, Shape Change and True Polymorph are the only ones an EK can't get.

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