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D&D 5E Totally underwhelmed by 5e bladesinger, am I missing something?
- Thread starter Mort
- Start date
Flamestrike
Legend
You know what I hare, is when people makeup. Page 177 in the players hand book reads:
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That says exactly what I said it does, and it doesnt say what you say it does.
1) Creatures are assumed to be alert to danger and to know the location of other creatures in combat.
2) In combat, in order to conceal your location from an enemy, you must take the Hide action.
3) Invisible creatures are not automatically hidden. The also need to take the Hide action, however they can do so at any time (this is the advantage of invisibility; you're always heavily obscured and can attempt to hide whenever you want without having to find total cover or heavy obscurement). It remains an action to take the Hide action (or a bonus action for a Rogue 2).
4) Hidden is defined in the combat section of the PHB as 'unseen AND unheard' (page 195). Page 177 of the PHB (hiding sidebar) specifically notes that if you are hidden and make noise you are no longer hidden. In order to be hidden you must be unseen and unheard.
5) To become hidden in combat (move silently/ hide in shadows) you must take the Hide action. This takes an action (representing the effort of moving slowly, muffling sound from your person, sticking to the shadows, avoiding leaving tracks, staying in a creatures blind spot and sticking behind cover) unless you are a Rogue 2 or a Ranger with the vanish ability (when it becomes a bonus action).
Example 1:
On his turn, a wizard casts greater invisibility on his Rogue 2 buddy (Stealth +11). The next turn an enemy Orc acts. He can walk up to the invisible Rogue and attack (at disadvantage). The Rogue is not 'automatically hidden' despite being invisible.
Following the Orcs turn comes the Rogue. On his turn, he can now attack the Orc (at advantage thanks to invisiblity) and (as a bonus action) take the Hide action (thanks to cunning action). He rolls and adds his stealth bonus (lets assume a roll of 10, plus 11 for his Stealth bonus for a result of 21). This is compared to the passive perception of the Orc, and easily beats it. The Rogue is now 'hidden' in addition to being invisible. The Orc cannot attack the Rogue barring a lucky guess (he now has no idea where the Rogue is). The Orc can try and find the Rogue with the Search action, needing a 21 on his Perception check to pinpoint him.
Nowhere in the PHB does it say you can use the Hide action or the Search action as free actions. It has very clear rules for Hiding in combat (it takes an action to make yourself unseen and unheard) and for searching for hidden things (you use your action to search for them with a perception check).
Example 2:
The Wizard casts greater invisibility on Fred the Fighter (Stealth +0, disadvantage for Full plate).
Fred goes next. Fred wants to sneak up and attack an Ogre. Despite being invisible he is not currently hidden (he has yet to take the Hide action). Fred has a think about it and decides to move up to the Ogre and attack it (at advantage thanks to invisibility) as his action.
His turn ends, and he is still not hidden (and even if he was, he just gave his position away because he attacked).
Freds turn is about to end, but he has a moment of inspiration. He decides to use Action surge for an extra action, and then uses that Action to take the Hide action (at +0 with disadvantage from his armor). If he succeeds the Ogre wont know where Fred is anymore and (barring lucky guess) the Ogre wont be able to attack Fred on the Ogres turn.
See how it works yet?
The book doesn't say anything invisible creature has to take an action to hide, it just says it can hide anytime, sounds like a free action to me.
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Flamestrike
Legend
Wut?
No, it just lets you attempt the Hide action whenever you want. It doesn't affect the action needed (action or bonus action).
Normally, to take the Hide action at a minimum you need total cover or heavy obscurement (halflings and wood elves can attempt in other situations). Additionally if your target watches you go into hiding (knows where you are) you can't hide from him. Ordinarily you can't walk behind a pillar in full view of your enemy and use the hide action.
When you're invisible you don't need to worry about any of this and can attempt to Hide whenever you desire.
Invisibility just allows you to attempt the Hide action whenever you want. It doesn't turn the action into a free action.
No, it just means that an invisible creature doesn't have to worry about the "you can't hide from a creature that can see you. .." qualifier. They still have to take an action to hide.
We all know how hide works. The things you guys seem to be struggling with is, what constitutes an action. We get, and creature trying to hide attempts to be hidden for various reasons. When it comes to an invisible creatures, the reality is, for them to hide, all they need to do is shut their mouth and not make noise, which to me requires no action.
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Flamestrike
Legend
The reason it takes an action is if you're standing still and making no noise you're not doing anything else. Also, standing still and making no noise is the Stealth skill. You're attempting to Hide (mask your presence and location). It takes an action just as if you were standing in darkness or behind total cover or whatever.
You're wrong. RAW and RAI is clear mate. Of course it's your game so run it how you want.
zaratan
First Post
This doesn't make sense by RAW , because would be the same behind total cover or any other "unseen" way, making cunning action useless and all the rule about hide action.
But make logical sense in your table so use that way if you want.
In the rules it does not say it takes an action, it simply says, and invisible can hide at anytime. If it required an action, it would say, "use your action to____, or take a bonus action to _____" like it does for so many other things. They don't make rules vague by accident, they allow things to be interpreted by what the DM thinks should be right, because it takes a hell of a lot less effort for and an invisible creature to be quiet, than a person standing out in the open going somewhere to hide.
I've been playing RPGs for over 20 years with many different systems, I can tell you, they keep whatever rules as vague as possible because they don't want things to become limiting.
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