UngeheuerLich
Legend
I think making the Longsword a d8 slashing finesse weapon would not be out of order.
The old Longsword is then renamed bastard sword.
The old Longsword is then renamed bastard sword.
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D&D 5E Longswords
BookBarbarian
Expert Long Rester
I like Estocs, but I would stat an Estoc or Tuck as a Longsword with Piercing damage. No finesse.
Then Dex builds will continue to use the rapier which is what he is trying to avoid
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BookBarbarian
Expert Long Rester
True, but he is also trying to increase the use of the Longsword, which renaming the Rapier to Estoc will not solve.
GreenTengu
Adventurer
What did this thread get a bunch of blathering ignorant idiots going on about katanas demonstrating the typical westerner's weird fetish with Asian stuff that gets absolutely everything wrong?
Anyway, is strikes me that the Rapier is a fundamentally broken weapon that is screwing the whole formula up.
Compare Rapier to Scimitar. The Rapier weighs LESS, but is somehow not a Light weapon. The Rapier does d8 while the Scimitar does d6. Yeah, I get that the reason was because there is a particular iconic Drow who made dual scimitars totally "the thing" to do, but... it seems weird that these two fairly comparable swords have different states and the lighter weapon is not the "light" one.
Though I do get the reason is because conceptually it is harder to try to stab with long objects in two hands than to slash with two objects.
But also-- you just aren't going to be doing the same damage to someone using a rapier as you are going to with a proper sword. At least not a person in armor or a creature with a thick hide. At least not unless you hit a soft spot.
So I think the best solution is that the Rapier does only d6 damage, BUT if you get a critical hit then instead of 2d6 as normal, you roll 3d6.
But... it would still be the best possible weapon for Dexterity fighters regardless. So... yeah... the fact that Dexterity Fighters are so damn much better than Strength fighters unless Strength fighters are using 2-handed weapons is the other massive problem.
Dex fighters get away with using lighter and cheaper armor without losing AC, get bonuses on better skills, get the advantage on Initiative, use the stat more often than any other for saves and get full access to ranged attacks...
Unless one is going to do something like shift Initiative over to Intelligence (you need to mentally react before you can physically react) and Ranged Attacks to Wisdom (proper vision and breathing control is more important than quick hands) or something so that Dexterity becomes less the stat with "all the good stuff"... its hard to see how you even begin to balance that out. But it is probably nearly impossible to take enough away from Dexterity in order to make it equal to Strength. And I am not sure what you could give Strength. But.. you can make some strides to try to get the attributes to equal out.
The designers really royally screwed the whole thing up.
Anyway, is strikes me that the Rapier is a fundamentally broken weapon that is screwing the whole formula up.
Compare Rapier to Scimitar. The Rapier weighs LESS, but is somehow not a Light weapon. The Rapier does d8 while the Scimitar does d6. Yeah, I get that the reason was because there is a particular iconic Drow who made dual scimitars totally "the thing" to do, but... it seems weird that these two fairly comparable swords have different states and the lighter weapon is not the "light" one.
Though I do get the reason is because conceptually it is harder to try to stab with long objects in two hands than to slash with two objects.
But also-- you just aren't going to be doing the same damage to someone using a rapier as you are going to with a proper sword. At least not a person in armor or a creature with a thick hide. At least not unless you hit a soft spot.
So I think the best solution is that the Rapier does only d6 damage, BUT if you get a critical hit then instead of 2d6 as normal, you roll 3d6.
But... it would still be the best possible weapon for Dexterity fighters regardless. So... yeah... the fact that Dexterity Fighters are so damn much better than Strength fighters unless Strength fighters are using 2-handed weapons is the other massive problem.
Dex fighters get away with using lighter and cheaper armor without losing AC, get bonuses on better skills, get the advantage on Initiative, use the stat more often than any other for saves and get full access to ranged attacks...
Unless one is going to do something like shift Initiative over to Intelligence (you need to mentally react before you can physically react) and Ranged Attacks to Wisdom (proper vision and breathing control is more important than quick hands) or something so that Dexterity becomes less the stat with "all the good stuff"... its hard to see how you even begin to balance that out. But it is probably nearly impossible to take enough away from Dexterity in order to make it equal to Strength. And I am not sure what you could give Strength. But.. you can make some strides to try to get the attributes to equal out.
The designers really royally screwed the whole thing up.
Adventures in Middle Earth solves this with the broadsword (finesse, but not versatile)
Just add that. Longsword is for STR fighters who want to sometimes go 1H, sometimes 2H. For whatever reason.
(Actually, I'd have named them the other way round, but I guess for consistency it's better the AiME way)
EDIT - rapier should just be flat removed, imho
Just add that. Longsword is for STR fighters who want to sometimes go 1H, sometimes 2H. For whatever reason.
(Actually, I'd have named them the other way round, but I guess for consistency it's better the AiME way)
EDIT - rapier should just be flat removed, imho
Zardnaar
Legend
The strength based feats are better than the dex based one. At lower levels strength based will have higher AC until level 6 minimum assuming you use the default array.
Without feats though dex is uber and is unbalanced as hell.
Some very good points made. I think it is clear that 5e went the route of making the Dex based fighter a real possibility compared to previous editions at the cost of making Dex even more of an Uber-stat than it already was. Some might call it payback for the old days when everyone had a long sword, but I would be more comfortable with the idea if they had more finesse options than just the rapier (rather than settling for a mechanically lesser weapon that is). Also, despite correction from learned historical weapon enthusiasts, I still can't get the "musketeer" (or perhaps Zorro) image out of my head.
In the end, I think the best solution, at least for my preferred more medieval style game, would be to just rename the rapier to sabre or broadsword, or to take away the + dex to damage for finesse weapons.
In the end, I think the best solution, at least for my preferred more medieval style game, would be to just rename the rapier to sabre or broadsword, or to take away the + dex to damage for finesse weapons.
Zardnaar
Legend
They could have made dex the rapid strike option giving up daamge for moe attacks a'la AD&D with archer, rapid shot in 3E and doing something similar for dex melee such as an extra dice of damage as a fighting option
ccs
41st lv DM
This I gotta hear. HOW do you imagine a great sword as a finesse weapon?
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