D&D 5E Should short rest be an hour long?

[The Crimson Binome]

If only there was some kind of 'Dungeon Master' present to put the brakes on players who try and game the rest rules. A guy like that would be useful.

He could place time constraints on quests, rule resting doesnt recharge anything because the environment doesnt allow for it, throw random encounters at the party for resting, alter the resting rules by using one of the variants provided, or simply say no.

Given the sheer volume of resources that would need to be kept in check, that seems like an awfully large burden to place on such a person, especially if that same 'Dungeon Master' was also in charge of building the world and playing all of the NPCs. Doubly so if such a person tried to remain within the basic game premise of not meta-gaming while making those decisions.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

So if you don't actually eat/drink/etc. the mundane stuff during that specific hour, but just hand-wave the snacks/canteen use/bandaging as you travel, if you realise that you haven't done anything strenuous for the last hour then yes, you get the benefit of a short rest! We assume/hand-wave the mundane stuff whether or not it's taken place within that specific hour.

You seem to be implying that any sort of light activity, up-to-and-including the application of bandages, can be performed at any point - even while performing the sorts of strenuous activity that would normally make resting impossible. That makes sense for drinking from a canteen, or even eating a trail ration, but you can't apply bandages to a moving target; and I'm pretty sure that whatever arcane ritual is required to consciously recover specific spell slots is a little too complex to perform while jogging.

Even the spending of hit dice! Remember that hit points are not meat in D&D.

Remember that, officially in 5E, damage is described differently by different DMs. In some games, including many of those governed by the default healing/resting options, you're not even bloodied until you're down to half, and damage between half and zero is mostly cosmetic. If a given DM describes damage more physically, such as would generally be the case for anyone requiring a medkit in order to spend Hit Dice, then that's not something you can hand-wave healing as a side-effect of having not done anything strenuous recently; you actually need to lie down and have someone apply whatever poultices are involved during that period.

The tricky part comes when you start talking about retroactive continuity, because while we can generally assume that most non-heroic activity takes places off-screen, we never know when that assumption might stop applying. Let's go with food as an example. If you wander into the Swamp of Rotting, where mischievous fey cast a curse over all food in order to make it instantly rot, then suddenly it matters when the last time you ate was; if you ate right before entering the swamp, then you're better off than if you were planning to eat along the way. And the DM, preparing for this possibility, may have made a surreptitious inquiry into your eating habits before this point in order to avoid the possibility of bias in interpreting the outcome.

As another example, imagine you've found a cave in which to wait out a thunderstorm, and you've been in there for three hours before a dire bear wanders in. It suddenly matters whether you've spent some of that time in applying bandages and recovering spells from your spellbook. You may have consciously chosen to not spend Hit Dice and activate Arcane Recovery, because you expected to meet a healer later in the day and you weren't sure which spell slots you would need; and giving the players the option to now declare that they had previously performed those activities would be... bad in some way... the exact word escapes me at the moment (inauthentic?).

Of course, then you have some abilities that recharge after a short rest, and there's no real decision involved. I think pact spells and superiority dice fall into that category, where there's not really ever a reason to not recover those. In those cases, it's generally a pretty safe assumption that they'll always be performing those activities whenever they get a chance (unless the in-game reality of recovering pact spells involves reading your unholy book, in which case you may choose to not do that unless you have sufficient privacy against worried townsfolk).

 

[Arial Black]

You seem to be implying that any sort of light activity, up-to-and-including the application of bandages, can be performed at any point - even while performing the sorts of strenuous activity that would normally make resting impossible. That makes sense for drinking from a canteen, or even eating a trail ration, but you can't apply bandages to a moving target; and I'm pretty sure that whatever arcane ritual is required to consciously recover specific spell slots is a little too complex to perform while jogging.

Errm...pretty sure I was talking about a situation where you specifically had not done anything strenuous within the last hour...

Eating/drinking/bandaging/etc. take far less than an hour to perform. Although you might not have had an hour when you weren't, say, travelling, you can certainly imagine that you've had the odd five minutes here and there in order to do those things.

In fact, the only thing you actually need a full hour for is....rest!

Of course, the DM may say that the party has been chased so closely by the enemy that, no, they haven't been able to stop for even five minutes. Well, if that's the case, if you ask the DM if you have done anything stressful during the last hour, then the DM can say that, yes, you've been 'travelling' for your very lives, so you don't get the benefit of a short rest.

Earlier in this thread I quoted the rules about short rests, pointing out that the rules don't say you have to actually eat/drink/bandage during that specific hour in order to gain the short rest benefits, just that you can't have done anything more strenuous than those things.

You seemed to be of the opinion that surely the RAI was that you actually do those things during that hour, because why would they mention them by name if that wasn't their clear intention?

The answer is this: they knew that the game includes the long rest/short rest mechanics, and they expected PCs to be able to do stuff like eating/bandaging during that short rest hour if they wanted, but not actually force them to do those things in that specific hour. How should they word it? If they say that you must eat/bandage during that hour in order to benefit, then this would create the absurdity of not benefiting from eating/bandaging outside that hour! Imagine that my PC drinks from his canteen and eats some jerky while the party are travelling, and the snack lasts from 11:50 AM to 11:55. Then, the party leader decides to have an Officially Designated Short Rest (TM) at noon, during which the party has their Officially Approved Mandatory Snacks. Since my PC just ate only five minutes ago, I see no reason to eat again so soon. After the Official Short Rest, the DM gives the rest of the party the benefits of a Short Rest, but because my PC's snack was outside the Official Short Rest Hour (TM) my PC does not get the benefit.

No. Just, no.

But if the writers don't say that you can eat/bandage during the hour, then some DMs may interpret eating/bandaging/etc. as 'not resting', and therefore the PCs don't get the benefits because they didn't rest for a full hour; they were eating and bandaging instead of resting, right?

So how could they word the rule to avoid either misunderstanding? Simples! Say that they can do stuff like eating/bandaging during the hour and it still counts as resting! Also, anything else, as long as it isn't more strenuous than those things!

This doesn't take away the DM's agency! The players can certainly ask if they have done anything strenuous within the last hour, and if the DM thinks that they haven't even had five minutes to eat/bandage (for whatever reason) then he can tell them that they haven't had enough rest for a Short Rest, and even explain why! (The pygmies were one step behind you the whole time. Fey spoiled your food. There is a toilet paper shortage in the country. Whatever)

 

[The Crimson Binome]

The answer is this: they knew that the game includes the long rest/short rest mechanics, and they expected PCs to be able to do stuff like eating/bandaging during that short rest hour if they wanted, but not actually force them to do those things in that specific hour. How should they word it? If they say that you must eat/bandage during that hour in order to benefit, then this would create the absurdity of not benefiting from eating/bandaging outside that hour!

Just going by the letter and intent of the rules, you need to take a short rest in order to spend Hit Dice to heal, whether or not you're using the medkit optional rule. If you don't apply those bandages during a short rest, then they have no effect. So even though you probably don't spend that whole hour just applying bandages, you must have a distinct and contiguous one-hour block of non-strenuous activity in order to successfully apply bandages. And the same is true for the wizard to use Arcane Recovery. Those are things which you can only benefit from during a short rest.

So no, it's not a given that you can do all of those things just whenever you feel like it. They do, in fact, force you to do certain things during that one hour (if you're going to do them at all).

This doesn't take away the DM's agency! The players can certainly ask if they have done anything strenuous within the last hour, and if the DM thinks that they haven't even had five minutes to eat/bandage (for whatever reason) then he can tell them that they haven't had enough rest for a Short Rest, and even explain why! (The pygmies were one step behind you the whole time. Fey spoiled your food. There is a toilet paper shortage in the country. Whatever)

The players should know what they're doing, if it's remotely strenuous, before the DM has to tell them. Hand-wave the biological functions, sure, but you always know whether you're currently in town or travelling or examining a room in a dungeon.

Of course, this just highlights the most important issue (which somehow escaped me until now): who even cares whether you declare a short rest retroactively, given that you haven't done anything important since then? I mean, unless you actually declare that you're stopping for an hour during your eight hour hike through the forest, we know that you didn't have anything like a short rest during that time. And how likely is the party to stand around quietly for an hour, without travelling or doing anything else strenuous, if they aren't specifically trying to gain the benefits of a short rest? It's not something that's likely to occur at the table.

 

[Arial Black]

Just going by the letter and intent of the rules, you need to take a short rest in order to spend Hit Dice to heal, whether or not you're using the medkit optional rule. If you don't apply those bandages during a short rest, then they have no effect. So even though you probably don't spend that whole hour just applying bandages, you must have a distinct and contiguous one-hour block of non-strenuous activity in order to successfully apply bandages. And the same is true for the wizard to use Arcane Recovery. Those are things which you can only benefit from during a short rest.

So no, it's not a given that you can do all of those things just whenever you feel like it. They do, in fact, force you to do certain things during that one hour (if you're going to do them at all).
The players should know what they're doing, if it's remotely strenuous, before the DM has to tell them. Hand-wave the biological functions, sure, but you always know whether you're currently in town or travelling or examining a room in a dungeon.

No, you don't need to wait for the Designated Short Rest Hour to apply the bandages! You can apply the bandages as and when you like (not that bandages are actually required to regain hit dice, but even if they were!). But you only actually spend the hit dice at the end of a short rest.

Of course, this just highlights the most important issue (which somehow escaped me until now): who even cares whether you declare a short rest retroactively, given that you haven't done anything important since then? I mean, unless you actually declare that you're stopping for an hour during your eight hour hike through the forest, we know that you didn't have anything like a short rest during that time. And how likely is the party to stand around quietly for an hour, without travelling or doing anything else strenuous, if they aren't specifically trying to gain the benefits of a short rest? It's not something that's likely to occur at the table.

Yes, this does highlight the important issue, and it is what you say it is!

You've been in a bar brawl in town, kicked their collective buts, and managed to disappear into the crowds before Jonny Law turns up to feel your collars. You meet up at your pre-determined emergency meeting point (another pub, of course), and after a swift pint (for appearance's sake) you mosey about town, looking at various sights, enjoying the day, but never actually declare to the DM that you are taking an Officially Designated Short Rest.

We can say that the fight was strenuous, we might even suggest that the escape from the brawl pub to the meeting pub was strenuous, but nothing after that has been more strenuous than eating/drinking/bandaging/urinating. Looking round shops is not more strenuous. No character resources were expended (Ki points, Superiority Dice, Spell Slots) since the brawl.

After a while, a PC could ask the DM if it's been an hour since they arrived at the meeting pub. If the DM says yes, and we know that they've had something to drink and had ample opportunities to urinate/snack/bandage, why wouldn't they get the benefits of a short rest? What have the PCs failed to do that would let them have the benefits?

 

[Bupp]

I've come to this discussion late, and honestly, don't feel like reading through all the posts. I have skimmed and caught some of the general ideas, though.

I just wanted to add a house-rule that I use that I call a "quick rest".

A quick rest is a period of downtime, at least 2 minutes long, during which a character catches their breath. The character does nothing more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds. A character can spend up to half their level (rounded down) in Hit Dice at the end of a quick rest. For each Hit Die spent in this way, the player rolls the die and adds the character’s Constitution modifier to it. The character regains hit points equal to the total. The player can decide to spend an additional Hit Die after each roll.


A character can’t benefit from more than one quick rest until they have taken a long rest.


A character regains some spent Hit Dice upon finishing a long rest, as explained below.

https://5egrognard.blogspot.com/2016/05/quick-rest.html

This is meant as nothing more as a quick heal up. You can only use half of your hit dice, and none of your short rest powers or abilities recharge as well.

 

[jayoungr]

in 95% of situation where you can afford 1hr rest you can manage 8hrs also.

I disagree with this. My players frequently find a reasonably safe room in the middle of a dungeon (or something) where they can rest for an hour, but staying there for eight hours would almost guarantee discovery.

 

[Prism]

I disagree with this. My players frequently find a reasonably safe room in the middle of a dungeon (or something) where they can rest for an hour, but staying there for eight hours would almost guarantee discovery.

And unless you time it, you possibly can't start the long rest until you have waited for up to 16 hours to begin it. Unless you always go adventuring in the evening

 

[The Crimson Binome]

No, you don't need to wait for the Designated Short Rest Hour to apply the bandages! You can apply the bandages as and when you like (not that bandages are actually required to regain hit dice, but even if they were!). But you only actually spend the hit dice at the end of a short rest.

If you really want to, sure, you can apply bandages whenever. They just don't do anything, unless you apply them during a short rest and spend Hit Dice. The end of a short rest is the only time when it is legal to expend a usage from your medkit for this purpose.

After a while, a PC could ask the DM if it's been an hour since they arrived at the meeting pub. If the DM says yes, and we know that they've had something to drink and had ample opportunities to urinate/snack/bandage, why wouldn't they get the benefits of a short rest? What have the PCs failed to do that would let them have the benefits?

In this case, the PCs may have failed to actually apply those bandages, which is the in-game reality of which "spending Hit Dice and expending one use from a medkit during a short rest" is the mechanical model. Cause and effect. Your wounds feel better because you bind them. You can't have the effect if you don't have the cause. If an hour passes uneventfully in the pub, even if the DM acknowledges that they've had the opportunity to apply bandages, they don't get the benefit of spending Hit Dice unless they actually do that.

If you want to hand-wave that, and say that the characters found some time in there in which to apply bandages, then that's one thing. That's not going to fly at a lot of tables, for the simple fact that it's a retcon, but you could do it and it wouldn't be an egregious case of rule-breaking (in letter or spirit).

If you want to say that you don't need to perform the in-game action in order to gain the mechanical benefit, then that's another thing entirely, on par with saying that a dead character can still take actions. It would only be true if you take every rule at its letter, and ignore that there's any sort of in-game reality being modeled whatsoever.

 

[Flamestrike]

Given the sheer volume of resources that would need to be kept in check, that seems like an awfully large burden to place on such a person, especially if that same 'Dungeon Master' was also in charge of building the world and playing all of the NPCs.

Not at all. All he needs to do is ensure his players are getting (on average) around 6ish encounters per long rest, and a short rest every 2nd encounter or so.

He can increase or decrease that figure from adventuring day to adventuring day of course. Some days the PCs might only get the one encounter. Some days it'll be waves of encounters with no chance to short rest. Some days the PCs might have the time to short rest after every single encounter.

Remember; encounter CRs and difficulties are based on the expectation that the PCs are rationing long rest resources over 6-8 'medium-hard' encounters, and short rest resources over around 2 such encounters.

If you (the DM) deviate from this expectation and fail to police the AD, then it throws things like class and encounter balance out of whack.

Doubly so if such a person tried to remain within the basic game premise of not meta-gaming while making those decisions.

Dungeon Masters arent 'prohibited from metagaming'. Only players are. In fact, the DM is required to metagame his encounters (designing level/ CR appropriate threats and challenges for his party).

Policing the adventuring day is part of the DMs job description. The only reason the 5 minute adventuring day exists is due to poor DMing. A DM that is too lazy to place time constraints on his quests (and a quest or task that has no time limit attached should be rare indeed), or to turn his mind to the question of player resource management in other ways (dangerous environment or even just imposing the 'gritty realism' variant).

DnD player resources are not 'per encounter' abilities - they are supposed to last and be rationed over several encounters. Stop looking at them as per encounter, and start looking at them needing to be strategically deployed over 6-8 of them.

With that in mind, now apply some creativity to your quests. Why does the macguffin need to be destroyed/ recovered/ located/ rescued/ delivered to X? When does it need to happen by? What is the consequence if this doesnt occur? How does the BBEG react if confronted with a group of PCs that hit hard, fall back and rest?

Imposing limits like this not only police the adventuring day, but also show that actions have consequences. There is a penalty for failure (or a reward for success). They make the whole management of resources by the players a longer term decision, where the consequences of reaching for a high level spell/ long rest ability is that you wont have it available for future encounters that adventuring day. Player resource use is highlighted (when you pull that action surge, fireball or rage out of your pocket, its a meaningful player choice and is more noticeable than simply being an 'automatic mash the god mode button').

When designing encounters, do so in the context of the whole adventuring day and not just in isolation of any other factor.