Darkstrider - Cloaked in Shadow

[AbdulAlhazred]

You mean searching for something as a minor means I can search only in one square? Thanks

Sorry, that is actually not substantiated by the RC's descriptions of the Stealth and Perception Skills. Actually the RC is a bit fuzzy in some respects, as it describes an action called 'Find A Hidden Creature', which is described as simply a minor action to do what it says, with the DC being the Stealth check result. This presumably is a way to get a NEW ACTIVE Perception check against the creature's pre-existing Stealth check. If the creature is invisible (as in this case apparently) then it REMAINS SO, but its location becomes known. Again, the Stealth skill rules do make it plain that even an invisible creature must still become hidden using a Stealth check or else other creatures will know its location (but still target it at -5 with single-target attacks, as it remains unseen).

How this interacts with the power in question is still obviously a mystery. The power implies that a character becomes hidden WITHOUT any Stealth check. Does this mean they effectively have a Stealth check value of INFINITY??!!! We don't know! The power literally isn't written in a way that matches with the processing of Stealth and invisibility in 4e. Whomever wrote/edited it clearly wasn't well-informed about this part of the rules!

IMHO the power should grant an immediate automatic Stealth check with a large bonus, plus invisibility. That would cleanly solve the problem. A keen enough Perception would be capable of identifying the location of the user, though if you were handing out say a +10 Stealth power bonus that would be a pretty tough trick! In any case, even the ordinary Stealth rules state that you can't be hidden from a creature which enters your own space, playing 'minesweeper' always works, even against invisible opponents, and the power actually weakens that a bit by revealing you to adjacent opponents too.

Truthfully, for most purposes, you can simply assume all monsters fail all Perception checks to find the target. Its not going to matter much.

 

[RedSiegfried]

For a good explanation of HIDDEN (as opposed to merely invisible), see this article saved from the old 4e forums:

Rules of Hidden Club

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/show...-of-Hidden-Club-I-Think-I-Failed-A-Spot-Check

Though, as AbdulAlhazred said, what is your Stealth roll if you don't have to roll a Stealth check to become hidden in this case? That is unanswered; the power doesn't address that.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

For a good explanation of HIDDEN (as opposed to merely invisible), see this article saved from the old 4e forums:

Rules of Hidden Club

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/show...-of-Hidden-Club-I-Think-I-Failed-A-Spot-Check

Though, as AbdulAlhazred said, what is your Stealth roll if you don't have to roll a Stealth check to become hidden in this case? That is unanswered; the power doesn't address that.

Right, once you understand the trifecta of invisible, hidden, and unseen, then really 4e's Stealth system is pretty straightforward. The only other wrinkles come in with things like the various types of senses (tremor sense, true sight, etc), but those just layer on a few extra ways to find people. Where things actually get complicated are the rules for when you can invoke Stealth, not on the same action you became unhidden being the main one.

Powers like the one the OP is wrestling with, that ignore the whole framework, are the only real problem.

 

[masteraleph]

However, I understand, the power doesn't talk about a Stealth check. The problem is, this power, as written, is simply poorly implemented. There's no provision in 4e for something being impossible to detect. Probably the best we can do is say that you ARE invisible. Invisible can't be countered by Perception, you can FIND invisible people, but they are still 'unseen' and thus you still attack them with a -5 penalty, can't OA against them, etc. By THAT interpretation you could THEN make a Stealth check to ALSO be hidden, at which point any creature coming upon the scene wouldn't even know where to look for you. A 'merely' invisible creature you see in 4e, is not actually hidden, everyone KNOWS they are there! You actually need to employ Stealth. This interpretation means that the power is misleading, but at least it fits within the overall 4e framework for Stealth and visibility.

Given the language used here (Hidden until you move or attack) and Darkstrider's main damage feature (Hidden at the start of your term), I actually think they meant to give you an auto-hidden here, and that actively searching wouldn't work. You need to move or use a move action to make a stealth check, but those are basically out given the power.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Given the language used here (Hidden until you move or attack) and Darkstrider's main damage feature (Hidden at the start of your term), I actually think they meant to give you an auto-hidden here, and that actively searching wouldn't work. You need to move or use a move action to make a stealth check, but those are basically out given the power.

Its one interpretation, that's for sure. Basically its assuming that your notional Stealth check roll was 'Infinity'. Nobody can overcome it by any means. I never liked that kind of thing personally. There has to be SOMETHING that can find you, an Elder Dragon can't sniff you out? Really? lol. Practically speaking though it is probably fine. If the monsters aren't actually looking anyway, then its pretty much moot, and if they are, they'll just 'minesweeper' you into being revealed anyway. The best you'll get out of that is delaying the inevitable and getting off an attack with advantage when they get too close. The same would happen if you simply got a steep bonus to your Stealth check, so it really isn't a PROBLEM, per-se, unless you are dealing with something enough higher level than you or exceedingly Perceptive that the no-chance-at-all thing seems a bit forced.

 

[pemerton]

The power implies that a character becomes hidden WITHOUT any Stealth check. Does this mean they effectively have a Stealth check value of INFINITY??!!! We don't know!

what is your Stealth roll if you don't have to roll a Stealth check to become hidden in this case? That is unanswered; the power doesn't address that.

I think [MENTION=93444]shidaku[/MENTION] and I made a pretty good case upthread that you are hidden - that is, have the benefit of a successful Stealth check (ie no Perception check can defeat your hidden-ness).

We (well, really, shidaku) then teased out how special senses would likely interact with it.

Basically its assuming that your notional Stealth check roll was 'Infinity'. Nobody can overcome it by any means. I never liked that kind of thing personally. There has to be SOMETHING that can find you, an Elder Dragon can't sniff you out? Really?

I think it would use its Blindsight.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think [MENTION=93444]shidaku[/MENTION] and I made a pretty good case upthread that you are hidden - that is, have the benefit of a successful Stealth check (ie no Perception check can defeat your hidden-ness).

We (well, really, shidaku) then teased out how special senses would likely interact with it.

I think it would use its Blindsight.

The point is, not all creatures of such stature have Blindsight (and not even all dragons have it consistently, 4e is actually pretty terrible about that kind of thing). Its one power and not a big deal, it would just have been better if, in general, 4e feat/power developers had stuck more consistently to the mechanics. In a FEW cases you get things that a designer obviously thought just wouldn't work within existing procedures (and sometimes they were right). A similar area is with effects, which often just kinda mimic other effects or conditions, kinda annoying.

 

[Jhaelen]

Though, as AbdulAlhazred said, what is your Stealth roll if you don't have to roll a Stealth check to become hidden in this case? That is unanswered; the power doesn't address that.

Normally, if you don't want/have to roll, you 'Take 10', don't you?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Normally, if you don't want/have to roll, you 'Take 10', don't you?

Take 10 only applies to situations where there aren't any consequences of failure, beyond simply not moving forward. So you can take 10 on a check to do some ordinary thing, or even to do some extra-ordinary thing if you have a situation where there isn't something pressing going on. You can't take 10 in combat, as a general rule. Anyway, in this situation that would mean that you would NOT be hidden from the most perceptive enemies (at least potentially), which is at odds with the power description. I think we're pretty much left with the 'plus infinity to your Stealth check' interpretation.

 

[Joshua Randall]

Hidden is a huge mess in 4e as witnessed by the 'Rules of Hidden Club' document linked above.

I would have the DM and players work together to figure out something that seems fair.

Cloaked in Shadow is a level 12 Paragon Path power, so it's meant to be reasonably powerful, but not, y'know, EPIC-ly powerful. As a DM I'd probably let this power 'just work' most of the time; I wouldn't try to screw the PC out of his PP.