Darkstrider - Cloaked in Shadow

[ZickZak]

Hey,
can you pls explain how does the below work? When I go to a wall and use it, I dont need to roll stealth and am auto-stealthed vs everyone not-adjacent? Aka none can roll stealth against me and I ll remain stealthed forever?

Thanks
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[h=1]Cloaked in Shadow[/h]You vanish into the shadowy clefts of the natural rock and stone around you.

Encounter

Martial
Minor Action Personal
Requirement: You must be adjacent to a wall or other large stone feature, such as a column, a boulder, or a stalagmite.
Effect: You are hidden to any enemies that aren’t adjacent to you. You remain hidden until you move or attack.

 

[MwaO]

Powers only typically last 5 minutes unless they explicitly say otherwise.

Also, targets can still make perception rolls to figure out you're there. They may not be able to see you(because you're in effect, invisible), but that doesn't necessarily mean they don't know what square you're in...

 

[ZickZak]

So I do the power, then what? It doesnt say "roll stealth" as per usual, it says I am hidden which in Glossary is "When a creature is hidden from an enemy, the creature is silent and invisible to that enemy. A creature normally uses the Stealth skill to become hidden. See also invisible."
So it seems like I am hidden and unable to be found unless someone steps to Adjacent.

As in: In order to achieve Hidden, you must roll stealth and beat enemys perception... then you re Hidden.
In this case though, you stand near wall, meld with stone and gain the Hidden condition without a need for stealth roll, because the only way to find you melding into a stone is to find tracks or something and to come nearby

 

[Sunseeker]

As I read it, you are "hidden" unable to be seen or heard, until you move, or attack. No rolls necessary, just hold really really REALLY still. If someone comes adjacent to you, they auto-detect you. I wouldn't worry too much about how long the power lasts. 5 minutes is like 50 rounds.

 

[pemerton]

[MENTION=6748747]ZickZak[/MENTION]

I agree with [MENTION=93444]shidaku[/MENTION] - it is (in effect) auto-success on Stealth.

There are some corner cases you might have to adjudicate - can truesight, blindsight or tremorsense defeat it? I don't think there's a clear rules answer for these (or, if there is, obviously I'm ignorant of it!).

 

[Sunseeker]

@ZickZak

I agree with @shidaku - it is (in effect) auto-success on Stealth.

There are some corner cases you might have to adjudicate - can truesight, blindsight or tremorsense defeat it? I don't think there's a clear rules answer for these (or, if there is, obviously I'm ignorant of it!).

The keyword "hidden" only covers sight and sound in 4e. It doesn't cover smell (I've had DMs use that against me!), it doesn't cover any extra-special sight or extra-sensory perceptions.

 

[pemerton]

The keyword "hidden" only covers sight and sound in 4e. It doesn't cover smell (I've had DMs use that against me!), it doesn't cover any extra-special sight or extra-sensory perceptions.

The main Stealth-using PC in my long-running 4e game is a drow sorcerer who relies mostly on darkness and invisibility. So truesight, blindsight and tremorsense all defeat the darkness/invis, and hence eliminate the concealment, and hence eliminate the stealth.

So I've never had to get deeply into the sorts of issues you mention.

 

[Sunseeker]

The main Stealth-using PC in my long-running 4e game is a drow sorcerer who relies mostly on darkness and invisibility. So truesight, blindsight and tremorsense all defeat the darkness/invis, and hence eliminate the concealment, and hence eliminate the stealth.

So I've never had to get deeply into the sorts of issues you mention.

Sure, as someone who typically likes to play a sneaky rogue when I'm not paladinnning it up, it's just something I've read up on. The rules are a little weird.

Truesight defeats magical obscurement (such as invisibility or Darkness), but doesn't do anything for shadows or physical obscurement. Batman here is still just as hidden in the shadows on the wall 10' feet from the dragon's nose as he is from the human.

Blindsight lets you ignore shadowy concealment and magical concealment, however it still becomes blocked by walls and other physical obstacles. So Batman still needs to run around a wall before hiding.

Tremorsense lets you sense the location of any physical object touching the ground ignoring magical obscurement and shadows and line of sight but if it flies, you're boned. I hope Batman has wings.

Nothing officially lets you hide your smell, aside from leaving the plane, but that defeats all these forms of sense too. Which is odd come to think of it.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

So I do the power, then what? It doesnt say "roll stealth" as per usual, it says I am hidden which in Glossary is "When a creature is hidden from an enemy, the creature is silent and invisible to that enemy. A creature normally uses the Stealth skill to become hidden. See also invisible."
So it seems like I am hidden and unable to be found unless someone steps to Adjacent.

As in: In order to achieve Hidden, you must roll stealth and beat enemys perception... then you re Hidden.
In this case though, you stand near wall, meld with stone and gain the Hidden condition without a need for stealth roll, because the only way to find you melding into a stone is to find tracks or something and to come nearby

You aren't invisible, you are simply HIDDEN, which is a 4e 'state' that can exist between any creature and any other creature where the hidden creature is unseen by the other creature. The other creature can specifically use a minor action to make an active Perception check and try to find you. IF said creature has no reason to be sure which square you are in, then said check might be hit-or-miss as it only covers one square, but in this case the chances are the creature KNOWS which square to search.

However, I understand, the power doesn't talk about a Stealth check. The problem is, this power, as written, is simply poorly implemented. There's no provision in 4e for something being impossible to detect. Probably the best we can do is say that you ARE invisible. Invisible can't be countered by Perception, you can FIND invisible people, but they are still 'unseen' and thus you still attack them with a -5 penalty, can't OA against them, etc. By THAT interpretation you could THEN make a Stealth check to ALSO be hidden, at which point any creature coming upon the scene wouldn't even know where to look for you. A 'merely' invisible creature you see in 4e, is not actually hidden, everyone KNOWS they are there! You actually need to employ Stealth. This interpretation means that the power is misleading, but at least it fits within the overall 4e framework for Stealth and visibility.

 

[ZickZak]

IF said creature has no reason to be sure which square you are in, then said check might be hit-or-miss as it only covers one square, but in this case the chances are the creature KNOWS which square to search.

You mean searching for something as a minor means I can search only in one square? Thanks