Darkstrider - Cloaked in Shadow

[AbdulAlhazred]

Hidden is a huge mess in 4e as witnessed by the 'Rules of Hidden Club' document linked above.

I would have the DM and players work together to figure out something that seems fair.

Cloaked in Shadow is a level 12 Paragon Path power, so it's meant to be reasonably powerful, but not, y'know, EPIC-ly powerful. As a DM I'd probably let this power 'just work' most of the time; I wouldn't try to screw the PC out of his PP.

See, I've never really seen why people call 'hidden' a 'huge mess', its actually QUITE straightforward, by the rules that are published in the Stealth update in PHB2. Some of the sidebars seem to have confused people in PHB1, but the truth is its pretty darn simple.

Hidden is a 'state' that exists between 2 creatures in which one of the creatures is not visible to the other, thus its location is unknown (at least technically, it may well be pretty clear where the hidden creature MUST be). If the hidden creature's current active Stealth result is better than or equal to the passive (or active if it searches) Perception of the other creature, then it is hidden, assuming it abides by the other restrictions listed in PHB2's rules update (or the Rules Compendium, which is worded virtually identically). There are some rules about what allows one to make a Stealth check to hide, and some rules about what will end that state.

Even factoring in invisibility, which brings up the question of being 'unseen' but not hidden, its not THAT complicated. Different senses present some additional rules exceptions when they apply, but even those are relatively straightforward. All one ever needed to do was read the rules and keep in mind what the basic concept was, and it just all works.

 

[Joshua Randall]

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I have found Stealth/Hidden to be a huge PITA in actual play, so I mostly hand-wave it.

Stealth is to 4e rules as Grapple was to 3e rules. In that some people think it's overly complex, other think it's simple, and many people find it takes up too much time at the table.

 

[MwaO]

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I have found Stealth/Hidden to be a huge PITA in actual play, so I mostly hand-wave it.

What makes it an PITA? About the only PITA I've really found is explaining to permastealth PC players that I'd prefer them not to play it because it is unfun for the rest of the table. Because they've invested resources in making a TPK of the rest of the party more likely.

Or making sure they're using the updated rules.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

What makes it an PITA? About the only PITA I've really found is explaining to permastealth PC players that I'd prefer them not to play it because it is unfun for the rest of the table. Because they've invested resources in making a TPK of the rest of the party more likely.

Or making sure they're using the updated rules.

Yes, there is the problem that WotC kept larding in more and more easy ways to achieve Stealth to the degree that it is now pretty trivial to be basically always hidden. Likewise with CA, its trivial to just have permaCA. Much like the issues with charging too. Its not a problem with the core system, its a problem with providing so many exceptions on top of it that it undermines the point of these things. Getting hidden was supposed to be hard but advantageous, something you'd have to develop some significant tactics for and wouldn't happen just any old time. Things worked well in PHB1/2 era, you could sneak around and gank people from the shadows or maybe now and then dodge into cover and back out and get a bonus, now you can dance around in melee and magically be 'hidden'.