D&D 5E Do you care about setting "canon"?

[Maxperson]

OA says there is a Western world. It doesn't say that the gods of that world are more than petty godlings subject to the rule of the Celestial Emperor (should he wish to assert it). It doesn't say that the Western conception of the world, as unordered, is true - either in general, or even where those people come from.

If they were a part of the celestial bureaucracy, they would be run like the celestial bureaucracy runs. There would be no difference between the eastern and western worlds, except for maybe races. There would be western samurai, sohei, etc. The fact that the west is alien to the east is incredibly strong evidence that you are wrong in your assumptions.

Re-quoting the passage from OA p 116:

Unlike the western world, which has always tended to view non-human creatures as a loose collection of beings with no unity or cohesion, the Oriental mind has organized the world into a unified whole. One particularly strong belief is that of the Celestial Emperor, a powerful being who heads the Celestial Bureaucracy, a type of government of the spirits. Many of the spirit creatures described in this section come under his command and many hold offices or positions within the Celestial Bureaucracy.​

It can't be true that the world of Kara-Tur is a unified whole, but when you cross some boundary (which one?) the non-human creatures lose their cohesion. (Except in so far as they haven't yet been subjected to government.) Or - and to borrow from real-world geography to make the point - is the Chinese coast of the Pacific Ocean ruled by dragons, but the Californian cost not? What about Hawaii?

First, it goes out of its way to let you know that the east and west are different with that passage. It also goes out of its way to specify that the Celestial Emperor is only a belief. There is nothing to suggest that he is even real, let alone rules the west.

Equally, it can't be the case that the Celestial Bureaucracy is mere belief, and yet it has spirits as office-holders. Clearly, if it has officers (in the form of spirits) then it exists, and the belief in it is true. Which means that the non-human world is not a mere "loose collection of beings with no unity or cohesion".

It specifically says it's a mere belief, and yes, you can also BELIEVE that that such a mythical being has office holders that also don't exist in reality. It says that the belief includes a government of spirits. The second sentence was written in context to the first sentence, merely describes the offices and positions believed to be held by the spirits presented. Given the context, it wasn't necessary to be redundant and state believe a second time. The writer assumed the reader could understand context.

Either the world is subject to a Celestial Bureaucracy of spirits and the like, or it's not.

Correct. And that is left up to to the DM to decide, not OA RAW. OA RAW specifies that the Celestial Emperor and the Bureaucracy are beliefs, and that the east and west are different from one another.

No one playing a Planescape or MotP game supposes that the elemental planes exist only in relation to certain mortal lands. Either the world is made up of those elements, or it isn't. The Celestial Bureaucracy is in the same boat.

No. The elemental planes are on a cruise ship and the Celestial Bureaucracy is on a dinghy. The planes are not believed to exist. They are known to exist, not merely a belief.

As to whether the Celestial Emperor is a god - as far as I know the only treatment of him in original AD&D is in DDG, where he is Shang-Ti, the supreme god of the Chinese pantheon. Seems fairly god-like. In OA itself (p 122), we are also told that the Hu Hsien (fox spirits) "greatly fears thunderstorms since the Celestial Emperor sometimes sends the Thunder God to punish the hu
hsien for its wicked ways." Generally speaking, only gods command other gods. And, on p 127, we are told that "Go-zu Oni, and the me-zu oni, form the bulk of the Celestial Emperor's army in times of trouble and insurrection. They also oversee the lands of the dead and escort the reluctant departed there." Again, I think it is fairly clear that the Celestial Emperor is a god, given that his army is made up of the guardians of the land of the dead.

That makes sense...........if he even exists

 

[Maxperson]

[MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]'s Star Wars example is a good one - even when I was in primary school, I could tell that changing Luke and Leia to brother and sister cast a different light on their earlier romantic relationship.

Cast a different light on, sure. Change? No. That relationship was exactly the same before the revelation. Their relationship progressed with the new knowledge, but it's not as if it prevented them from being together. Han and Leia were going to be an item regardless. Luke and Leia were going to be very close regardless. The revelation of Vader as their father just added some color.

 

[Maxperson]

Kara-Tur is just one continent in the world. But there is no general rule in D&D that each continent has its own divine hierarchy, it's own thunder god, it's own god of the sea, etc.

Yes, but you are working off of assumptions that you have thrown into OA, not OA RAW. OA RAW goes out of its way to separate the east and west, keeping the emperor as an OA guy ruling over OA things. Everything mentioned is about him and the OA. Trying to move him to being ruler over the west is you going against the grain of the theme.

 

[Mirtek]

Adding something to something changes that thing.

If you really want to go with the strictest possible definition than yes. By that definition you can only ever utter one single statement about D&D because every time thereafter you're changing the lore.

Maybe my Demogorgon,

But your Demogorgon doesn't matter. Neither does mine. Only the official D&D Demogorgon as used in the continous story matters.

but, prior to Planescape, I wasn't countering any lore either.

Indeed. But for those wanting to follow the official lore it doesn't matter what anyone did in his own (or even themselves in their own) campaign.

And that could have changed how my game world works.

But your world is not where the D&D novels take place, so it doesn't matter if it changes your world. It only matters if it changes previous D&D supplements/novels.

Which, again, makes supplements about Demogorgon less valuable to me.

I agree.

The thing is there have been many changes to canon D&D lore in the past. Not just adding, but real changes. Some on purpose, some by accident, but until 4e they all have been very minor in overall scope. 4e was the first to introduce such drastic changes to the tapestry of D&D lore that they couldn't just be swept under the rug.

Heh, sour grapes much? The irony here is that you're arguing that Raistlin was a warlock, Fizban was a wild mage and none of that is a lore change in any way. And then standing on the hill of "canon is important and shouldn't be changed".

That's a good example actually. In the canon story he was a spellcaster. How the actual game rules change is not important because the story ignores the current game rules for the most part anyway. So whether the current game rules stat him as a magic-user, a wizard, a sorcerer or even a warlock doesn't change the story. As the D&D rules are all but meaningless to the D&D story anyway. No novel author cares how many spellslots a wizard is supposed to have at level X. A general nod that spell slots are a thing is the most the rules can hope for.

Or - and to borrow from real-world geography to make the point - is the Chinese coast of the Pacific Ocean ruled by dragons, but the Californian cost not? What about Hawaii?

And where is the problem with that?

Kara-Tur is just one continent in the world. But there is no general rule in D&D that each continent has its own divine hierarchy, it's own thunder god, it's own god of the sea, etc.

Indeed there is not. In fact there are worlds where one pantheon rules the whole world on all continents. We just know that Toril doesn't happen to be one of those worlds

 

[lowkey13]

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[Mirtek]

So what is "D&D canon" again? The rules? In the editions? The various bits of lore scattered across rulebooks? Across modules? Across officially licensed products? Novels? Cartoons? Other products?

Accross officially licensed products that were deemed canon by TSR/WotC (e.g. officially licences FR computer games are not canon, however novels based on those games are)

Raistlin, for example, exists as a character in a series of modules (playable, or as an NPC) throughout various editions, as well as a character in various novelizations. Which parts are D&D lore? Do we consider 3PP, however official or unofficial (Dragon magazine)? Is this "D&D Lore" or a subset (Dragonlance lore)?

3PP no, the story from the official products yes (Dragon was always official). Any game rule parts are just an attempt of representing the lore within the game rules of that time.

Raistlin is a human, frail of body but with a mighty mind who became one of the most powerfull arcane spellcasters on Krynn. So stating him as a 20th level magic user or 24th level wizard or 16th level warlock doesn't change that. Saying he is and always has been a dwarven cleric does.

Cf. Vecna. Depending on who you talk to, and what supplements they have read, you will receive a lot of varying view of Vecna. From the beginning (vanquished Lich, progenitor of artifacts) Vecna has been re-purposed into modules and pantheon status.

Vecna has a continuos story. He was a mortal human, became a lich, was destroyed (leaving behind two articfacts), become a demigod even after his dead (through the lingering dread he left as his legacy being just as good as actual worship) and as a demigod managed to gain even more power.

D&D is first and foremost a game.

It started as a game certainly. But it also has almost 300 novels just for forgotten realm alone

quite simply, can be true to different aspects of each other.

The problem starts when the changes made in one become to enormous for the others to ignore.

The "canon" of the Marvel Comics, and the "canon" of the MCU are not the same, albeit similar.

Because they conceded that they already has messed up comic canon beyond saving and a restart was their only option. And that the have people responsible specially for the continuity of the MCU is telling that they recognized such a continuity as important for it's success.

Anyway, has anyone changed their minds because of this thread?

Has anyone ever?

 

[Corwin]

I'm finding it hard to even follow the mental gyrations and pedantry necessary for this argument but I'm curious to see how far this goes...Did Star Wars canon change the minute they introduced Darth Vader in the first movie? He wasn't in the movie before he was introduced so that's changing canon right? Did they change cannon when the opening scroll proclaimed it took place in a "galaxy far, far away"? Before that it wasn't established where it took place... In fact everything changes canon according to your definition so how do we ever establish canon or lore since, according to you, anything added is a change?

This, IMO, clearly illustrates the absurdity of some of these extreme arguments being made about "change".

To put a bit finer point on it, as I see it... The very first thing you see as A New Hope begins is:

The first half of the sentence, "A long time ago," has certain automatic responses in our brains. We think of eras long past in our world. Times long gone. Then the second half of the sentence ruins that image by changing it to, "in a galaxy far, far away...." WTH?! What does that even mean? What galaxy? What is this? This isn't *my* "long time ago"?!?

Stupid changes to canon! Star wars ruined itself five words in.

 

[lowkey13]

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[Mirtek]

How is it that a game is not on the list, but a novel based on the game is?

Likely because of the games not being linear and with the many choices you can take to solve each quest there can only be one sequence of events that could have happened in cannon.

Do you expect Hasbro to pull a Disney, and officially exclude the expanded D&D Universe at some point (D&D Legends?).

I hope not. That would be the epitome of all canon changes.

, but the length and complexity of a canon is what necessitates reboots.

I disagree here. What did necessitate the reboot was that they had already messed up the existing canon numerous time. If they had a "continuity department" all along to make sure that each new release is just advancing the canon in an orderly fashion, then it would not have been necessary to reboot.

 

[lowkey13]

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