D&D 5E reducing dominance of ranged: cantrips

[lowkey13]

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[Tony Vargas]

D&D is sui generis in the way that it blends together different archetypes (from the Tolkien Ranger to the "Kung Fu Fighting" Monk to the ... "whatever it is" cleric).

We can always excuse something that tries and fails to model something established as re-imagining it, instead.

I think that we're in general agreement as to diagnosis regarding cantrips. I think we just disagree on the particulars as to the desirability of it. I understand that there are those who prefer to use magic in combat; I just disagree. It's a difference of opinion; I prefer the model that limits magic to less, but more spectacular and efficacious, use.

And 5e sets out to allow a range of styles, so it really /should/ be able to handle both. It's easy enough to play a caster who doesn't know combat cantrips, but you might be too weak in the at-will department, depending on the build. Reining in cantrips & ranged attacks more generally, might, coincidentally, help with that, by lowering the at-will effectiveness bar a bit.

OTOH, I also find it deeply problematic that 5e has incorporated spellcasting into almost every class, as well as appearing to make class abilities interchageable with spellcasting (that smite will cost you X spells). That is a fundamental design paradigm that goes beyond the cantrip issue.

I can't strongly disagree. Yes, all classes have at least one sub-class that uses spells in some way. Though, I don't find cashing in slots to power something other than spells problematic - a tad clever, if anything.

As they say-

It may be hard for you to find the Wizard;
but...

...in Soviet Russia, WIZARD FIND YOU!

 

[lowkey13]

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[Tony Vargas]

Take monks. While there are very few fantasy antecedents for the Monk (but see the Haruchai in Covenant, the Land), they became a part of the D&D canon.

You're forgetting that Kung Fu was on TV when Gygax was writing the 1e PH. ;P

And with the rise of manga/anime, they are re-imagined and continue to gain an audience beyond "I am Caine, Kung Fu Warrior ... you know, basically just walking the earth, killing orcs, taking treasure."

OK, maybe not. Point is, the kung-fu-fighting thing was big in the 70s. There was even a disco song. It's not a case of something odd finding popularity, it's the case of D&D including something from pop culture.

D&D as a whole is like that. It's not so much that it failed to model something else; instead, it succeeded in creating its own thing

That's the other way to spin it. D&D failed to model the existing fantasy genres, and in doing so persistently, established it's own fantasy sub-genre. Or it struck out to do the latter, intentionally. Or it was just another irreverent 70s genre-blender. Take your pick.

 

[neogod22]

Of those spells listed, the Sorcerer only has cloudkill and banishment, unless you went warlock 17/sorc3, in which case you can't have both foresight and true polymorph, and you'd lose cloudkill. EDIT: wish might work for forcecage, but you still can't polymorph into a dragon

Only because there is no CR 20 dragon. Adult gold is 17 and I think the ancients start at 21.

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[lowkey13]

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[neogod22]

I'm not sure why people try to compare classes fighting each other. This isn't a PVP game and it doesn't need to be balanced like it is. If that's your concern, go back to 4E, because that's what that was about.

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[flametitan]

Only because there is no CR 20 dragon. Adult gold is 17 and I think the ancients start at 21.

Eh, what? Polymorph can only turn you into beasts. You can't turn into dragons with it, that's what True Polymorph is for. And sorcerers don't get true polymorph, only regular polymorph. Not only that, but True Polymorph is a 9th level spell, meaning you can't cast it using wish.

 

[Jester David]

Alabama has pop of 4,863,300. And 53,616 public teachers (all grades). Which is .0110 of Or just over 1% of population. So teachers are very very rare (like wizards). And depending on your location it maybe hard to find a wizard.

1% for all grades is just what I had as well.
Teachers are rare for the overall percentage of the population, but are still one of the more common professions. In some states, "teacher" is the most common profession. Think about it, everyone has met a teacher in their life.
Even if being a wizard is the least common grade (likely 12 given the ability to have larger class sizes and drop-outs) there'd still be a LOT of them.

 

[neogod22]

Eh, what? Polymorph can only turn you into beasts. You can't turn into dragons with it, that's what True Polymorph is for. And sorcerers don't get true polymorph, only regular polymorph. Not only that, but True Polymorph is a 9th level spell, meaning you can't cast it using wish.

You can, you just suffer the consequences after. In using wish, you don't have to have it simulate true polymorph, you just simply wish yourself to be a gold dragon. There is no worrying about concentration.

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