D&D 5E Stealth Revamp

[Dausuul]

The last flare-up of the long-running debate over Stealth got me to thinking about what it would take to rework the Stealth rules in 5E. I spent a while noodling over it and came up with what follows. Rather to my surprise, I ended up with something that slots quite neatly into the existing 5E ruleset.

The goal was to create a system that would, in 90% of cases, resolve to "Roll Stealth versus passive Perception," and handle the oddball 10% with a few simple rules and a healthy dose of DM discretion. What do you think? Are there important stealth scenarios that aren't addressed? Would this work at your table?

2/16: Updated per suggestions below.

STEALTH
You can use Dexterity (Stealth) to avoid being heard or seen by your foes. To do so, you must be hidden to any creature that might see you, and quiet to any creature that might hear you.

Hidden: You can become hidden by using the Hide action, which means taking shelter behind something that provides partial concealment; a bush, a crowd of people, etc. You are then hidden to any creature whose sight of you is impeded. You stop being hidden if you attack, cast a spell with a somatic component, or do anything else that draws attention. You also stop being hidden if you lose your concealment.

If an obstacle provides total concealment, you can't be seen at all and do not need to be hidden. However, this usually means you can't see your enemies either! In most cases, peeking out to watch enemies (or attack them) means you only have partial concealment and must be hidden.

You can also be hidden to a creature if it's distracted. Normally, creatures expecting danger pay attention all around them. If a creature's attention is focused elsewhere, or you are in an unusual place (such as on the ceiling), the DM may rule that the creature is distracted from you. You are hidden to that creature as long as it remains distracted.

Quiet: Once on your turn, you can become quiet (no action required). If you move more than half speed, attack, cast a spell with a verbal component, or do anything else that makes significant noise, you stop being quiet.

Stealth and Perception: The first time a creature might see or hear you, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check against the creature’s passive Perception. A creature’s passive Perception equals 10 plus its Wisdom (Perception) modifier. If you fail, you cease to be hidden or quiet to that creature. If you succeed, the creature doesn’t see or hear you; however, it may detect you by other means, such as smell.

A creature relies on both sight and hearing to detect stealthy foes. If the creature must rely on a single sense to detect you (it’s deaf, you’re invisible, etc.), it has disadvantage (-5) on its passive Perception.

The DM may require you to re-roll Stealth if the situation changes or a long time has passed. Otherwise, you keep the same result until you stop being stealthy. Use it against any creature that might see or hear you.

Stealth in Combat: You can use Stealth in combat, subject to the above rules. However, bear in mind that concealment, partial or total, is only useful as long as you keep it between you and your enemy. You can Hide behind a pillar, but an enemy need only walk around the pillar to see you plain as day.

Searching: A creature can use its action to look for stealthy foes. It makes an Intelligence (Investigation) check. If the result equals or exceeds your Stealth result, you are no longer hidden or quiet to that creature.

OTHER RULES CHANGES
Mask of the Wild (Wood Elf Trait): In natural surroundings, you can treat any type of light obscurement (fog, dim light, etc.) as concealment allowing you to Hide. If you’re hidden this way, the obscurement penalty to vision doesn’t apply to detecting you.

Skulker (Feat, first ability): You can treat any type of light obscurement (fog, dim light, etc.) as concealment allowing you to Hide. If you’re hidden this way, the obscurement penalty to vision doesn’t apply to detecting you.

Skulker (Feat, second ability): When you’re hidden or quiet, if you make a ranged attack and miss, you don’t stop being hidden or quiet.

 

[Lanefan]

First thought: you need to factor in smell somehow, as it's significant more often than you might expect.

Second thought: not one mention of Invisibility, Blur, various illusions or any other spell effect that might conceal or help conceal one's presence...big omission.

Third thought: needs a mention of environment making stealth easier or harder at DM's discretion (leave tracks in snow/mud/water, high wind or pouring rain muffles sounds, tricky echoes, etc. etc.) just so everyone knows it's a factor.

Lanefan

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I think this is going in the right direction, and I particularly like the hidden vs. quiet distinction and the fact that Quiet doesn't require a separate action, but halves your speed.

But I wouldn't use this as written because it still has the same flaw as the PHB stealth rules: "taking the Hide action" is left totally abstract, so you'll still have the usual disbelief from people who can't believe that "taking the Hide action" when you're behind the door to an outhouse somehow allows you to use your Stealth skill to exit the outhouse without being seen or heard, and you'll still have the usual questions about what happens if you Hide inside the outhouse and someone looks inside--do they somehow fail to see you just because you "took the Hide action" and "rolled 40 on [my] Stealth check"? Why​ do they fail to see you?

I think fixing this requires more concreteness on the Hide action, and finer rules granularity for how it works. Imagine if there were several canonical examples of how Hide could work: (1) move up to half speed (quietly) to another obscured location, thus causing anyone who can't observe the path between both locations to believe you're still in the original Hide location (i.e. Hide as a half-Dash with Stealth affordance built in); (2) Hide behind a tapestry (Hide as an item interaction + Stealth affordance--requires you to have enough movement to reach the tapestry and still have a Hide action), or hide in low vegetation (also requires you to have enough movement, and also requires dropping prone), causing anyone who approaches to be unable to see you even if they can see the space they're in, but you are automatically discovered if they look behind the tapestry or in the plants where you are; (3) Hide in a crowd of fifty people (consumes your movement), which doesn't make people unable to see you but makes it difficult to notice you specifically (perhaps Charisma (Stealth) vs. Wisdom (Perception)) as long as you don't leave the crowd; (4) Hide by clinging to the ceiling in the dark like Batman, which functions like option #1 except that there must be a ceiling, and the DM may ask for an Athletics check to climb up there as part of your Hide action.

From this perspective, rolling a high Stealth check means you give people no reason to look at you in your (overhead/underfoot/behind something) hiding place. You've very quiet and almost motionless or you move only when no one is looking at you, but just because you don't supply a reason for them to look at you doesn't mean something else might not cause them to do so. (For example, someone else hiding next to you, who has a low Stealth check and so twitches or sneezes.)

I'm not 100% happy with any of these suggestions but I hope that illustrates the idea: instead of saying "I hide", we want the player to say what he's doing to hide ("I hide under the table") to make it easier to adjudicate consequences. Hiding under the table lets you use Stealth to hide, yes, but it also makes you prone, and lets anyone who searches under the table discover you automatically. Hiding is no longer a superpower--there's a physical mechanism required each and every time you hide, and each method of hiding comes with its own built-in failure modes no matter how absurdly high your Stealth skill is.

I think unless you fix that issue, you haven't really revamped Stealth yet.

 

[jasper]

....they somehow fail to see you just because you "took the Hide action" and "rolled 40 on [my] Stealth check"? Why​ do they fail to see you?
.....
hemlock. " nat 40.Ha ha you can see me Eric Flint. He never think to look into pit. "
dm, "hm . the spiders bite for 1 pt of damage. Make a con save."
Hemlock, "nat 1 son of ...."
Dm, "splash! Eric flint heard you fall into the bottom. Until you have 3 baths you have disadvantage to hide and cha checks!"
Lanflan, "hey that 2 more than hemlock takes in a week normally!"

 

[DEFCON 1]

I think the very first step that has to be taken in order to start making Hiding rules work is to change the way people are looking at Dexterity (Stealth) checks. People continually look at those checks as a pass/fail proposition against other people's Passive Perception, which is the exact opposite way it should be looked at in order to avoid conceptual questions like Invisibility. Because by looking at it that way-- you roll a Dexterity (Stealth) check against a "target number" of someone's Passive Perception-- you then have retextualize it after the fact when your Dexterity (Stealth) check number becomes the "target number" for someone else who makes an Active Perception check.

To make it as easy to understand as possible, we need to get rid of the idea of a "pass/fail" state for Dexterity (Stealth) checks. Instead... the way we need to conceptualize it is that ANYBODY can try and Hide. To do so, you follow any necessary rules the game has in place to illustrate you covering yourself from visual, aural, footprints, odor, and air/environmental movement. Once you have completely those conditions per the rules, you have hidden yourself from notice and you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check to see how well you have accomplished it.

THAT's what the check is-- creating a "target number" for other people to notice you. That's it. You never "fail" at Stealthing. You aren't "Hidden" versus "Not Hidden". Sure, a piss-poor Dexterity (Stealth) check might mean you did a horrible job at trying to hide, but you didn't "fail". And why is this conceptualization important? Because the process isn't binary. Because all other creatures out there have varying Passive Perceptions, your check might have you higher than some, but lower than others. There is no "pass/fail" because there is always that middle ground between the two.

So let's stop explaining these Dexterity (Stealth) checks as something you "succeed" at or "fail" at. Characters aren't "Hidden" or "Not Hidden". Instead, let's explain the check for what is actually is-- it tells us how well we are hidden. If the DM lets you roll a Dexterity (Stealth) check, it's because you are hiding. And the number you roll tells you HOW WELL you have done it.

Once you do that... a lot of problems people have with trying to conceptualize the rules fall away-- especially with something like Invisibility. People always ask "How can I not be hidden if I'm invisible? That makes NO SENSE!". And that's true from a narrative standpoint-- if we are still thinking in the binary "pass/fail" of being Hidden, if people can't see you, why aren't you hidden from everyone? Why is a Dexterity (Stealth) check necessary? You're invisible to everyone godammit! There *is no* "fail" here!

But once we take away the idea of the "pass/fail" of hiding... it becomes easier to understand. "You're invisible? Good! You're hiding from everyone! Now the question is, how well have you hidden yourself from everyone else's other senses? Smell, hearing, touch etc.? Make a Dexterity (Stealth) check to see what it would take for others to possibly notice you even while invisible." And then once that check is made, we have the "target number" for everyone else to try and find that invisible person.

Now of course some players will still complain about this because they feel like Invisibility should be a catch-all for being completely unperceivable. Which... fine... if that's how they want to play it then NO AMOUNT of rejiggering of the stealth rules will satisfy them-- you'd actually have to change the rules of Invisibility in order to reach the point that some players might want (since Invisibility only blocks visual perception and thus is basically equivalent to someone standing behind a wall-- they both can't be seen but that's it.)

Beyond that though... just reconceptualizing the whole process as something where someone decides they want to hide, they put themselves into a position to do so which follows whatever requirements the game sets up, and then they roll a Dexterity (Stealth) check to see how well they did... makes things just easier to understand. After that... other creatures use their Passive Perception or make an Active Perception Search check to see if they notice the person hiding. If they get over the hiding person's Dexterity (Stealth) check, then they do. And the hiding character does not get the bonuses that come for being hidden.

TL;DR: A Dexterity (Stealth) check doesn't tell us whether are "Hidden" or "Not Hidden"... if the DM has us making a check then it means we *are* hidden, and the number rolled tells everyone else how well we did it.

 

[nswanson27]

I would just explicitly state the rules about popping out of cover and attacking with advantage. Like "rogues can use their bonus action to test stealth vs. target PP to cause their next attack to roll with advantage, provided they are currently and remain unseen by their target until the start of the attack", or something. Don't introduce contextually vague words like "hidden" or anything into the equation. Just make it a dead simple and predictable mechanic, no RAW/realism debates.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Now all that being said... we also have another big hurdle to get past, which is that the game covers three different "senses" differently in terms of what creatures have to do to in order to be considered hidden enough that the DM lets them make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. And the "game rules" written up for these three "senses" range from more complex to completely non-existent. Which is kinda clunky and makes things even more difficult to wrap your head around.

The three "senses" the game uses are VISUAL, AURAL, and EVERYTHING ELSE. And there a lot of rules the game has put in place (both narratively and mechanically) for all three, some more taxing than others.

For the visual sense, the game talks about having to become unseen and the game actually supplies mechanical "game rules" which explain how a character can do that. The character mechanically needs to get out of Line of Sight from the person who might perceive them, either by going behind solid blocking terrain or by going into terrain or environment that makes them Heavily Obscured from the perceiver (and in three cases-- the halfling behind a large creature, the wood elf in natural terrain, and the Skulker in dim light-- only needing to be Lightly Obscured.) And of course Invisibility as a mechanic is considered to be Heavily Obscuring terrain automatically. If a character does that, then visually they have completed the mechanical baseline necessary to be allowed to roll a Dexterity (Stealth) check.

For the hearing sense... the game talks about "being quiet" and "not making a lot of noise" but unfortunately doesn't include any mechanical game rules on how to accomplish that. The rules are purely narrative. "Don't shout!" "Don't stomp around!" "Don't belch or sneeze or cry!" etc. etc. But there is nothing mechanical there and thus it's really just up to the DM to make a ruling themselves as to whether the character accomplished it. Now [MENTION=58197]Dausuul[/MENTION] did make some good ideas for possible mechanical rules in his OP... only move half-speed or less, no spellcasting that requires a verbal component and so forth. Which I think does help. But in either case, if a character "remains quiet" (however the rules want to decide on it), then aurally they have completed the baseline necessary to be allowed to roll a Dexterity (Stealth) check.

Then finally there is the third "sense", which is "everything else" a character could do that might be perceived. Did they leave any tracks towards their hiding spot? Are they changing air currents? Do they give off an odor to be smelled? Etc. etc. etc. And how does the game consolidate all of these things together? By pretty much ignoring them. They are handwaved away the exact moment the DM asks for a Dexterity (Stealth) check. The characters are not expected to narrate or even mention they are covering their tracks, or hiding "downwind", or not bumping into tree branches. These are all just assumed to be happening by the character when they say they want to try and hide, and the DM assumes they in fact are once they ask for a Dexterity (Stealth) check. So the game assumes these things are being done, and then "proves it" by having a Dexterity (Stealth) check rolled. Even though not a single thing was said by the players or the DM.

Which means the game requires all three of these "senses" to be blocked in order to hide... but has three separate levels of mechanical and/or narrative complexity to accomplish it. And I think that really screws things up for people. Why are leaving tracks handwaved but getting out of line of sight is not? Why are we told that narratively we have to "be quiet", but we don't have to narratively position ourselves "downwind" of the perceiver?

I mean, the game could just as easily made it as simple as a player says "I want to hide"... the DM says "Okay, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check" with no absolutely requirements of sight, sound, smell, or touch... and then he rolls Perception checks against that Stealth check to figure out who might see that hidden person. Basically handwave ALL the mechanical and narrative requirements need to hide. The game just assumes the person got behind a big object downwind, erased their tracks, didn't move and kept quiet. But I don't know how satisfying THAT would have been for players either.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

Your Hidden state has the same problem as current 5e. It states that you are "hidden to any creature whose sight of you is impeded" which some will interpret as being completely out of sight. As someone who has hidden successfully from others many times in my life, you can hide from someone and have parts of your body in view, including your head so you can observe them. I agree that there needs to be some sort of concealment/cover method in place to hide behind, however I would argue that unless you are performing some overt action that stealth can occur with parts of the stealthing character in view.

 

[dco]

In all games I've played it is skill check vs skill check, I don't see the problem.

 

[Guest 6801328]

STEALTH
You can use Dexterity (Stealth) to avoid being heard or seen by your foes. To do so, you must be hidden to any creature that might see you, and quiet to any creature that might hear you.

Hidden: You can use the Hide action to shelter behind something that impedes vision (a bush, a crowd of people, etc.). You are then hidden to any creature whose sight of you is impeded. You stop being hidden if you attack, cast a spell with a somatic component, or do anything else that draws attention.

Quiet: Once on your turn, you can become quiet (no action required). If you move more than half speed, attack, cast a spell with a verbal component, or do anything else that makes significant noise, you stop being quiet.

So, we replace the "Stealth" skill with two separate skils...we could call them "Move Silently" and "Hide in Shadows".

That's so crazy it just might work.