How to keep women in the game?

mythago

Hero
We have had women in our group, but they never seem to last. My daughter became disenchanted because of conflict between players, which caused some drama. Various girlfriends of other players played a few times, but they quickly lost interest. My sister plays once in a while, and she loves court intrigue and drama, but when I did a traditional hack-and-slash dungeon, she got bored and complained.

What can we do to keep women in our group?

So from what you've said:
  • Your group has interpersonal conflict and drama.
  • You don't invite female players unless they're your children or girlfriends of your existing players.
  • You ran a game at complete odds with the style of game you knew a new player enjoyed.

#1 and #3 are going to turn off a lot of new players, period. #2 is going to send a Girls Have Cooties message whether it's intended or not.

So is it that you really would like there to be more female gamers in your group and you're baffled as to why they don't stick around? Or are you perfectly happy if the ladies leave you and your Medievally Correct campaign alone and you're making a roundabout point through Just Asking Questions?
 

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Caliban

Rules Monkey
Other than avoiding overtly sexist humor, it really depends on the women in question. One of the players in the campaign that I DM for is a married woman with a child - her husband doesn't play, but she shows up every weekend to play her monk. And she makes more dick jokes than we do....
 

aramis erak

Legend
We have had women in our group, but they never seem to last. My daughter became disenchanted because of conflict between players, which caused some drama. Various girlfriends of other players played a few times, but they quickly lost interest. My sister plays once in a while, and she loves court intrigue and drama, but when I did a traditional hack-and-slash dungeon, she got bored and complained.

What can we do to keep women in our group?

1) Treat them equally with the others in the group.
2) Don't smell bad.
3) find out what they (individually) prefer in game.
4) make certain that everyone's pyschological boundaries are known and not crossed.
 

redrick

First Post
As others have said, the issue sounds like more one of "keeping significant others at the table" than keeping women at the table. We've had three regular woman players in our current group. Two of them were spouses of another player in the group and got bored and dropped out. One of them came to the game directly — she knew a friend was playing and asked to join — and she was one of our most committed players until moving to another city.

There are definitely things groups of men can do to be hostile to women, so look that stuff up and stop doing it. Excessive man-splaining, constant interruptions, misogynist humor, rape jokes, etc. Not saying you do that at your table, but if you do, now is a good time to stop! It also helps, as a DM, to make sure you have lots of women as interesting NPCs in your world. The first time I played D&D as an adult, with a woman in the group, I realized that all of the major NPCs in the adventure were either men or "merchant's wife." I've started rolling the gender for NPCs.

Take an opportunity to be sensitive to your whole group. Don't just ask the one woman player in your group, "are there any things you don't like or are uncomfortable with?" Ask everybody. We did this with when running a horror game: we e-mailed the whole group and said, "this is horror, it can get ugly, but there are any lines you'd rather not cross? feel free to reply privately." Both men and women responded privately with requests.
 

Isida Kep'Tukari

Adventurer
Supporter
I am a woman, and for over half of my D&D career I've also been a DM. However, while I was just a player, I played in a few groups that had a grand total of two women between them (both of them experienced gamers who were also wives of other players). I stayed because I enjoyed the game, first and foremost. I found the game interesting in and of itself, read the manuals in my spare time, looked online for other material, even made some of my own. I enjoyed the game because I had been introduced to it by my dad. He carefully went over character creation for me and my sister, making sure we understood what everything mean and how the game mechanics worked. Our first game was under an experienced DM who was used to new players and made some allowances for our ignorance (allowing Dad to explain some nuances of the game during times when the DM was focusing on another player). He was also a DM who took things in stride, as new players often come up with some weird and strange things.

If you have new players in your game, women or not, just be a welcoming and accepting group. Do character creation as a group, if possible, and if not, make sure one or more people are on hand to make that process go easily. If the player doesn't know the rules yet, be sure to explain as you go along, and encourage the player to read the relevant book when they get the chance. Talk to the party as a whole about what kind of campaign you're doing, and encourage feedback (possibly after the game or via text/e-mail, if they're less comfortable speaking in front of the group). "Did you have fun tonight?" "You seemed quiet, is there something you would have liked to do in the game that you didn't get a chance to do?"

Good personal hygiene and a pleasant atmosphere I hope would be standard in any gaming group!
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
My main suggestion would be not assuming there is a rule for "women" and treat them as individuals. This, plus the communism thread, and some other posts are looking awfully suspicious.
 

Lylandra

Adventurer
As others have said, the issue sounds like more one of "keeping significant others at the table" than keeping women at the table. We've had three regular woman players in our current group. Two of them were spouses of another player in the group and got bored and dropped out. One of them came to the game directly — she knew a friend was playing and asked to join — and she was one of our most committed players until moving to another city.

I agree. Generally speaking, keeping relatives interested in the game can be a fight against windmills and in many cases is not really worth the effort. Because interests vary and you don't want to "force" a player to stay in your group who only joined just because he/she wanted to be polite or even genuinely give it a try. My own sister, who loved online free-form-RP and had a sweet spot for dragons and fantasy didn't hook up with D&D. Too many rules and restrictions and mechanics for her taste. And that's okay.

There are definitely things groups of men can do to be hostile to women, so look that stuff up and stop doing it. Excessive man-splaining, constant interruptions, misogynist humor, rape jokes, etc. Not saying you do that at your table, but if you do, now is a good time to stop! It also helps, as a DM, to make sure you have lots of women as interesting NPCs in your world. The first time I played D&D as an adult, with a woman in the group, I realized that all of the major NPCs in the adventure were either men or "merchant's wife." I've started rolling the gender for NPCs.

Take an opportunity to be sensitive to your whole group. Don't just ask the one woman player in your group, "are there any things you don't like or are uncomfortable with?" Ask everybody. We did this with when running a horror game: we e-mailed the whole group and said, "this is horror, it can get ugly, but there are any lines you'd rather not cross? feel free to reply privately." Both men and women responded privately with requests.

So many yesses! Usually, no two women are alike, but your point could easily be renamed "common courtsey" and "being open minded and sensitive to the needs of others". If you would ask me, as a die-hard TTRPG loving woman, about the points which really annoyed me in my roleplaying carreer, I would name some of your abovementioned hostilities.

Getting interrupted sucks. And makes you angry. Especially when your interruptor then continues with a minutes-long monologue about things he deems important.And unfortunately, many of us are conditioned to be "nice" enough to not complain. It really took me years to voice my frustration on getting interrupted all too often.

Man-splaining... happened excessively with a guy we kicked out a few years ago. Luckily, he tried to man-splain not only for me, but for my fellow male players as well. And it turned out that we all knew more about the matters he was trying to tell us all about. Don't try to educate a 10+ years D&D veteran on how deadly a barbarian/frenzied zerker can be if you don't really understand the rules or the math. Also, don't try to educate a japanophile on japanese culture. Or a student of social sciences on what "victim blaming" means.

And while I don't mind (and even start) sexual innuendo and flirty jokes, this doesn't mean you should assume that it is okay for every player. Also agreed on rape jokes as a no-go. I don't make castration jokes either, eh?

Mature, or possibly disturbing themes should generally be consented by the whole group. We recently played an all-evil diabolist campaign and had to discuss on how to handle some of the more obvious practices of devil worshipping, like torture, sacrifice or gory violence in a way that none of our players would feel disturbed or freaked out. When handling harder themes in a campaign, in my experience, using reasonable (mature) consequences does help a lot.

And for the women NPC: Yep. But in most cases, the reason for "too many males", at least in significant roles, stems from the fact that many DMs are guys and tend to display their own gender as "default". I realized that I did the same when I first GMed a standalone adventure and almost all my important NPC were women. Unfortunately, many modules/Settings out there are written by men who don't know their own hidden bias and so write 70-90% male (and also often human) NPC into their world. Without even knowing it. Or having any ill intent. I once made the experiment and asked one of my GMs whether he knew that almost all his NPC were guys and he was shocked when he realized it. And yep, he tried to balance his NPC afterwards :)

Another pet peeve of mine that can be very upsetting is "Setting sexism". Because of "medieval realism". This can result in pretty annoying situations for players of female PCs who are then constantly questioned, harassed or belittled. Just don't do that. Not that you should fear incorporating *some* societies or people into your world who are biased, prejudiced or even hostile towards members of a certain gender, age, race or social group. But 1) it shouldn't be the norm that everyone and their dad is a misogynistic pig and 2) try to even out the biases. Have a matriarchal and a partiarchal society next to each other (which might be in a perpetual feud). Have one region where being a halfling makes you legendary descendants of a god, just to be viewed as utterly unworthy by a country where height means everything. And, most important, discuss the consequences such societies and stigmatas can have on your PCs and NPCs.
 

Igwilly

First Post
And for the women NPC: Yep. But in most cases, the reason for "too many males", at least in significant roles, stems from the fact that many DMs are guys and tend to display their own gender as "default". I realized that I did the same when I first GMed a standalone adventure and almost all my important NPC were women. Unfortunately, many modules/Settings out there are written by men who don't know their own hidden bias and so write 70-90% male (and also often human) NPC into their world. Without even knowing it. Or having any ill intent. I once made the experiment and asked one of my GMs whether he knew that almost all his NPC were guys and he was shocked when he realized it. And yep, he tried to balance his NPC afterwards :)
Ha. Never thought about that. It has been a while since I last Dm’ed, but I think I’ll spend some time to remember and think about this. Thanks!

Another pet peeve of mine that can be very upsetting is "Setting sexism". Because of "medieval realism". This can result in pretty annoying situations for players of female PCs who are then constantly questioned, harassed or belittled. Just don't do that. Not that you should fear incorporating *some* societies or people into your world who are biased, prejudiced or even hostile towards members of a certain gender, age, race or social group. But 1) it shouldn't be the norm that everyone and their dad is a misogynistic pig and 2) try to even out the biases. Have a matriarchal and a partiarchal society next to each other (which might be in a perpetual feud). Have one region where being a halfling makes you legendary descendants of a god, just to be viewed as utterly unworthy by a country where height means everything. And, most important, discuss the consequences such societies and stigmatas can have on your PCs and NPCs.
Yep, warning people on such a theme helps.
 

aramis erak

Legend
Actually, in re realistic historical gender roles - It's not of necessity requisite to avoid such settings. I've had 8 adult female players in such games... I gave them all the option: Play a male character, play a discriminated against female knight, or play a proper womanly role character. One (Jen) took the womanly route both campaigns. Steph's done both the "celtic warrior woman" and the female knight. Crystal took the female Knight twice. One took the Female knight, and later the sorceress role when her knight was cleaved in twain. Another took the spellcaster route, later playing a female knight. One opted for a male knight. Vicki opted for a female knight masquerading as a man, but didn't get to play. None of them asked for a "de-genderized" approach. 4 actively opposed such.

My female players have enjoyed the challenges therein. And the benefits. Remember that, in a biased society, women can do some things men can't get away with... No man is going to pay attention to the women while discussing the battle... but the woman can easily distract a guard with a lifted skirt... or promises of favors which get replaced by a knife in the neck once they're in private. (Both are actual things female characters did in game. Livia was a horrendously evil PC... Roman through and through ... she promised a male NPC a "night he would never forget, if you'll just take me now to your boudoir..." she neglected to mention the hemlock. (Jenn played Livia scarily like her namesake, Livia Caesar.)
 

mythago

Hero
Actually, in re realistic historical gender roles - It's not of necessity requisite to avoid such settings.

Unless you're running a Harn-esque straight up simulation of a particular region and time period, "realistic" isn't accurate. It's a matter of which elements the GM chooses to keep and which to discard. Which is fine, but then own it, instead of shrugging and saying that golly gee you just can't help sticking female PCs with discrimination and femme-fatale powers with a helpless shrug and the pretense of Realism Made Me Do It.
 

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