D&D 5E The Fighter Problem

[guachi]

Some class abilities are better than feats though, the Paladin gets his aura at 6 for example and that's way better than any feat.

Is that a universally true statement? Are you certain?

I think I'd have to agree. The Paladin ability is an always-on ability that greatly reduces your failure chances.

If it's a save you are proficient in and you have your ability up to standard for your level then your bonus is equal to the opposition's bonus. (Usually. An enemy is proficient in his save inducing attack like you are proficient in that save so that cancels. And his ability, especially if an NPC is probably equal to yours).

In this event you only need an 8 to save as your bonuses and his bonuses cancel. Potentially, at level 4, the Paladin could have an 18 Charisma granting +4 to the save. Now, instead of failing 35% of the time you only fail 15% of the time. You've reduced your chance of failing by 57%. By 8th level the Paladin can have a 20 Charisma and now you only fail 10% of the time. That's a 71% reduction in failures.

Here is probably the worst case scenario. If you aren't proficient in the save and have a -1 ability bonus. By level 6 the opponent might have +3 proficiency and +4 ability. This means you'll need a 15 to save and must roll a 16 on the die. Instead, you'll have net +3 to the roll and only need a 12. Before, you failed 75% of the time. Now, you fail 55% of the time for a 27% reduction in failures.

Add a bless to the best-case scenario and you have a scenario where you can only fail a proficient save by getting a 1 on a d20 and a d4. That's 1/80 rolls or 1.25%.

To be really absurd you could have party members take one level dip in a Constitution proficient class (or just be a Constitution proficient class) and then go nuts with Concentration spells and basically never fail your check. Fun times!

So, yeah. I agree that the Paladin save aura ability is absolutely amazing.

 

[Mistwell]

[MENTION=2525]Mistwell[/MENTION] and [MENTION=15700]Sacrosanct[/MENTION]

So your argument is that the defining feature of the Fighter is his ASIs and the available feats? That doesn't seem like a good enough differentiator.

Forgetting archetypes:
Barbarians have Rage, Fast Movement, and Reckless
Paladins have Smite, Aura, Spells, Lay on Hands
Rogues get more skills, Expertise, and Backstab
Monks get Ki, Fast Movement, Unarmed Strikes, Stunning Strike, etc, etc
Fighter gets Action Surge (weak comparatively), Second Wind(weak comparatively) and much later Indomitable(weak comparatively) and even later Extra Attack (nice but far too late) .... not very interesting or more potent comparatively.

If you want a simple solution to bring them up to board, the Champion abilities could be rolled into the base class.

if you want a more complex solution to give them a clear purpose/benefit:

Fighters could get Extra Attacks earlier than other classes to signify their dedication to combat, I would suggest 4th, 9th, 13th.
Fighters could get more uses of Action Surge, I would suggest: 2nd, 11th, 17th.
Fighters could get Indomitable earlier and get more usages of it, I would suggest: 5th, 9th, 13th, 17th.
Fighters could get an ability no one else gets: Stances; allowing them to do things like force movement (5 ft per hit), turn their action and/or bonus action into reactions, turn their reaction into a defensive ability, give them the "flanking" advantage, etc. They could gain these stances progressively starting at 5th, adding more each odd level.

This would make them the unquestioned masters of combat (which you assumed they trained to be) and give them a feeling of deadly physical potency that other martials couldn't match (completely on purpose).

It's funny, you up-front acknowledged my response is to focus on the feats...and then entirely dropped feats from your discussion.

If instead your list had this:
6th level.

Critical Attack. On your turn, when you score a critical hit with a melee weapon, you can make one melee weapon attack as a bonus action.

AND

6th level.

Killing Blow.On your turn, when you reduce a creature to 0 hit points with a melee weapon, you can make one melee weapon attack as a bonus action.

AND

6th level.

Power Attack. Before you make a melee weapon attack you can choose to take a -5 penalty to the attack roll. The attack hits, you add +10 to the attack's damage.

Now how does the class look in comparison?

Or if you don't like that, you can add this:

6th level.

Whirlwind Attacking. When you attack with your melee weapon, you can use a bonus action to make an additional attack. This second attack deals 1d4 as the base damage but adds your full additional damage otherwise.

AND

6th level.

Defending Attack. Other creatures provoke an opportunity attack from you when they enter your reach.

And we could do that with any number of feats.

Just because the language of feats buries 2-3 additional abilities (or more sometimes) in the text of the feat doesn't mean it "doesn't count" just as much as the text of a class ability. Simply counting class abilities as if a feat is equal to zero or one class ability relative to the text of other class abilities really doesn't fairly account for what we're talking about with feats.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I think people are forgetting that the paladin's aura is only allies within 10ft of you. That's pretty restrictive. So yeah, technically it's always on, but it most certainly isn't always beneficial to allies.

 

[Flamestrike]

If they got rid of the level 6 feat, and instead hard baked in the lucky feat, no one would say they never had a class feature to help out of combat situations. So why do they say it now? With those two extra feats (which are a class feature), you can give your fighter those out of combat abilities. Or not, if you don't want to.

This. A million times this.

Want your fighter to be better out of combat? Use those 2 extra feats on Skilled and one of the Skills for feat options. With 2 skills as a fighter, 2 from background, and likely 1 or 2 more from race, he's now proficient in around 10 skills, with expertise in one of those.

Want utility? Pick up Ritual caster intead. Or whatever.

The funny thing about the OP is I am sure I have seen him sook about GWM and SS feats as being OP. Seeing as Fighters get the most mileage out of those feats ([more attacks + action surge] + [precise strike/ tripping attack/ riposte/ feinting attack on the BM] or [higher crit range = more crits = more bonus action extra cleave attacks] for the champion) Im little confused by his reasoning.

 

[LapBandit]

I can't speak for MIstwell, but no. I don't think those two extra feats are the defining feature of a fighter. I think they are a feature of the fighter, just like action surge, second wind, or any other feature. Personally, I think it's a great idea, because unlike every other class that has its features hard baked into the class, the designers clearly are saying "We are allowing you to customize your fighter how YOU want without needing to multiclass or suffer any other drawbacks. Want a stealth fighter? The use on of your EXTRA feats for stealthy. Want a magic using fighter but not quite as magic heavy as the EK? Then use one of your extra feats for magic initiate or ritual casting. Want to be the baddest combat warrior? The use your EXTRA feats for things that do that." Etc, etc.

If they got rid of the level 6 feat, and instead hard baked in the lucky feat, no one would say they never had a class feature to help out of combat situations. So why do they say it now? With those two extra feats (which are a class feature), you can give your fighter those out of combat abilities. Or not, if you don't want to.

I'd like to retract any statement about replacing ASIs. I used that idea strictly to illustrate how badly the fighter needs to change.

I'd love for you to address the actual meat of my post.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I'd like to retract any statement about replacing ASIs. I used that idea strictly to illustrate how badly the fighter needs to change.

I'd love for you to address the actual meat of my post.

Read Mistwell's response. I'm in agreement with him.

 

[LapBandit]

It's funny, you up-front acknowledged my response is to focus on the feats...and then entirely dropped feats from your discussion.

If instead your list had this:
6th level.

Critical Attack. On your turn, when you score a critical hit with a melee weapon, you can make one melee weapon attack as a bonus action.

AND

6th level.

Killing Blow.On your turn, when you reduce a creature to 0 hit points with a melee weapon, you can make one melee weapon attack as a bonus action.

AND

6th level.

Power Attack. Before you make a melee weapon attack you can choose to take a -5 penalty to the attack roll. The attack hits, you add +10 to the attack's damage.

Now how does the class look in comparison?

Or if you don't like that, you can add this:

6th level.

Whirlwind Attacking. When you attack with your melee weapon, you can use a bonus action to make an additional attack. This second attack deals 1d4 as the base damage but adds your full additional damage otherwise.

AND

6th level.

Defending Attack. Other creatures provoke an opportunity attack from you when they enter your reach.

And we could do that with any number of feats.

Just because the language of feats buries 2-3 additional abilities (or more sometimes) in the text of the feat doesn't mean it "doesn't count" just as much as the text of a class ability. Simply counting class abilities as if a feat is equal to zero or one class ability relative to the text of other class abilities really doesn't fairly account for what we're talking about with feats.

Yeah I pretty quickly realized I wouldn't want to take anything away from the fighter, only add to/enhance what it already is. The willingness to give away an ASI was meant to illustrate just how badly the fighter needs something more/different.

Moreover that if you are going to give them class abilities they should be potent and grow with the class.

 

[Flamestrike]

Yeah I pretty quickly realized I wouldn't want to take anything away from the fighter, only add to/enhance what it already is. The willingness to give away an ASI was meant to illustrate just how badly the fighter needs something more/different.

Moreover that if you are going to give them class abilities they should be potent and grow with the class.

There is nothing wrong with the fighter as is.

Presuming you play in a game with a DM who understands what the 5 minute adventuring day is, and doesnt allow it.

 

[Zardnaar]

When it comes to archery, fighters win against the ranger hands down. Barring low level (when +1d8 and hunters mark on a handcrossbow using archery ranger can pump out some impressive damage) and 17-19 (where the Ranger gets to spam Swift quiver getting 4 attacks with the bow a few levels before the fighter does).



Only when raging. Presuming your DM sticks to the average recommended adventuring day length, then thats only for half the encounters per day. Some days will be shorter and some days will be longer. The fighter is always on.

If your DM isnt sticking to the 6-8 encounters per day rule, and your barbarians are raging round one, in every combat they enter, then its not the Fighters fault, its the DMs.



Tough criticism on the fighter as a class when your argument is 'he makes a mage unless you multiclass'. Only one sublclass even gets spells, and its a 1/3 caster.



They're in your games because you dont stick to the [6-8 encounter/2-3 short rest] meta. Deviating from this messes with class balance in a big way.

If you really think fighters are compared to paladins, casters and barbarians (all long rest based classes), simply give out more short rests (and more encounters) between long rests.

If having 6-8 encounters in a single day doesn't feel right to you, then make long rests take a whole week (gritty realism long rests) and leave short rests at an hour.

Problem fixed.

We don't stray to far from 6 to 8 although 4 to 6 is pronably closer. We have done anywhete between 0 an 12 encountets though. 6 ro 8 all the time is kinda stupid though and s crap for hexcrawls. Good for a dungeon hack. Hell the offical wotc adventures don't use the 6 to thing.

 

[Zardnaar]

This. A million times this.

Want your fighter to be better out of combat? Use those 2 extra feats on Skilled and one of the Skills for feat options. With 2 skills as a fighter, 2 from background, and likely 1 or 2 more from race, he's now proficient in around 10 skills, with expertise in one of those.

Want utility? Pick up Ritual caster intead. Or whatever.

The funny thing about the OP is I am sure I have seen him sook about GWM and SS feats as being OP. Seeing as Fighters get the most mileage out of those feats ([more attacks + action surge] + [precise strike/ tripping attack/ riposte/ feinting attack on the BM] or [higher crit range = more crits = more bonus action extra cleave attacks] for the champion) Im little confused by his reasoning.

Those feats are also OP on the other warriors so its a wash. Sharpshooter on hordebreaker and volley for example.

At higher levels the fighter does switch on somewhere between tge 3rd attack and 2nd action surge.