D&D 5E Skills Redux

[Warmaster Horus]

I have no problem with skills and tools being available across classes. This is what makes PCs unique.

Yes, there are definitely some under and over-utilized skills. Perception is a must as is Athletics/Acrobatics for a melee-based PC. Animal Handling? Not so much.

As a DM I've started using Perception as a MACRO skill (do you see something in the room?) and Investigation as a MICRO skill (I'm looking closer at something I've perceived in the room). A player can Perceive a rogue hiding behind a curtain in the room. However they must Investigate a fresco to determine it's a secret door.

Carousing is a great use for Persuasion (tell me about...), Intimidation (tell me about ... or else), Perception (keeping your ears open to hear rumors) and the like. I like it when the players tell me what they're doing and how they're doing it and usually allow advantage for a well-spun concept.

I usually allow four proficiencies to effect monster knowledge - Arcana, Nature, Religion and History - depending on the monster. History (tales of similar monsters) is usually a catch-all while the other four have the ability to provide more detailed, scholarly info on the type.

 

[CapnZapp]

Thanks for your well-reasoned reply, [MENTION=1465]Li Shenron[/MENTION]. I really appreciate it. You have so many points... let me see if I can quickly comment on some of them!

(If I left something out you wanted a reply to, let me know.)

* Skill list doesn't need to be exhaustive, can overlap, not be fixed, blurred: I know. I want to codify this - we don't play D&D like a free-form game. My players like having clear rules that they then spend time to overcome or abuse No but seriously, they don't like it if the DM is "making up" things since it makes them feel there are no clear rules, and they prefer it if things are made clear beforehand.

Besides, it's a theoretical point. If you run a prewritten module as written, you end up using some skills almost never and Perception becomes a god-stat. Seriously. Just get a passive Perception of 20+ and every ambush and every trap and every secret just appears in front of your eyes.

* What gamers wanted: Gamers also want to play special snowflakes like thin girls with oversized weapons dealing awesome damage with no Strength, all while they have incredible movement and range. Sorry, but not all things gamers want lead to a better game. (Where "better" means a tighter and more balanced game)

Remember Backgrounds are still a thing. Also Racial Skills. I would say that even with my Redux, skills are still way more open than in 3.x

* Your agreement on skill monkey niche: I don't have anything to add. 5E is falling prey to the classic adage "if everyone is special, noone is". The game just needs to be reined in, end of story.

It is not *me* that's using Perception too much. I'm running official modules as instructed.

* Skill tool mess: You have a point. But then again I am not fixing this primarily to make the game more elegant.

Same skill different ability: In practical play you would seldom use ANY ability on a certain skill. I have allowed for the most common cases that occur in practical play (in my campaign), such as being able to use Intimidated both as a Strong and Charismatic PC or NPC. Do note my Redux is generous to Int use of various skills precisely because Int is so underused currently.

* Spot & Listen: I'm afraid that boat has sailed. I did consider it, but in the end the skill list is so short that I can't justify it. Removing everything except sensing monsters will have to do (everything about finding traps and secret doors is now specifically other skills).

* Gather Information: yes, "Investigation" does not work for me, like at all. I have tried to wrap my head around that skill concept and haven't succeeded even now, sixteen levels later. It just mixes things that to me is wholly separate. And it never makes it clear WHEN it is used in place of Perception; especially in written campaigns. So the conclusion is easy: it maps poorly to the in-game actions I am used to playing with, so Investigation is gone. Do note however that Gather Information CAN be used with Int and not just Cha. But it's a "gossip" skill, yes.

* Adding more skills: not a primary concern. Please note Investigation is gone. Animal Handling and Nature too - all bundled into Survival (and in some cases Dungeoneering). Calming down a wild animal is simply weaksauce in a game where a) animals are weak monsters and b) why not just kill it? So is nature - all practical aspects were stolen by Survival, so we never saw any Nature checks.

The PHB lists 18 skills. My Redux lists 21 skills. Not a huge difference. And one of the additions is Craft, which is entirely secondary (several of my players create characters that are good at doing stuff, from goldsmithing to map-drawing, and I want to encourage that by a formal skill). Another is Might, which codifies things fighters have been able to do already back in AD&D. I want to move away from "Strength checks" to a skill, that allows you to use your proficiency on bend bards and lift boulders checks. The idea is also that multiclassed fighters might not be able to do these things as well as characters that start out Fighters: reinforcing the "strong man" archetype of true fighters - Strength-fighters, that is.

I guess the final addition (out of the three) can be said to be Dungeoneering. In a generic game, yes, this would be an quirky exotic skill. But this game featuring lots of dungeons, and even have "Dungeon" as part of its name! I don't care that some people get offended - dungeon knowledge is a core skillset in this game and 4E had it right by explicitly including it.

The important difference is that (Craft aside) my skills are (to me at least) more evenly balanced in how often they see usage. In no small part thanks to Monster Knowledge. And moving "thief spots stuff" out of Perception entirely.

 

[CapnZapp]

As a DM I've started using Perception as a MACRO skill (do you see something in the room?) and Investigation as a MICRO skill (I'm looking closer at something I've perceived in the room). A player can Perceive a rogue hiding behind a curtain in the room. However they must Investigate a fresco to determine it's a secret door.

Yeah, I've read all the threads and I simply can't make it work.

In the end, the simplest solution for me is to remove Investigation from the game. That way, there are no more questions and no more corner cases.

After all, I've run D&D for decades just fine without this idea. I don't want to have to think about "macro" and "micro", I just want to keep using what I know works well.

Is it a monster? Use Perception.

Is it a trap? Use Dungeoneering.

Already here, 90% of cases are covered.

Is it something else? Use something else (doh!) - perhaps Insight (if you want to detect a slight hesitation in a NPC) or Thievery (if you want to see minute differences in some exotic and intricate pattern) or perhaps even Gather Information (if you want to detect how completely separate people use the same speech patterns, as if they've been primed on what to say) or History (if it's about reseach and mapping various legends) or Arcana (if technobabble technobabble strands of energy in the plane-shifting portal or ritual you just found technobabble)...

In none of these cases, using "Investigation" feels natural to me. On one hand, it's too all-encompassing. On the other, it's too abstract, not direcly mapping to the practical use cases you see in the fantasy game. In the end, there is no need for it.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Therefore, I give you... Skills Redux:

Do you still use Strength (Athletics) for grappling/pushing/knocking prone, or has that changed as well?

 

[Corwin]

Look, I'm all for making 5e your own and adapting it as needed to meet individual needs. More power to you. It has a lot of malleability. But when I see stuff like this...

- investigation is utterly unused

...and when a DM is saying it, I have to wonder why they aren't taking action to make it less "utterly unused"?

Also, finding out more by talking to people and visiting bars is a common action. There needs to be a skill for that.

One of the recent UAs was about down time activities. Maybe a month ago? It had carousing and I think information gathering sections. Maybe check it out and see if there's something cool to be clipped from it?

 

[CapnZapp]

Look, I'm all for making 5e your own and adapting it as needed to meet individual needs. More power to you. It has a lot of malleability. But when I see stuff like this...

...and when a DM is saying it, I have to wonder why they aren't taking action to make it less "utterly unused"?

Talking about written campaigns, specifically Out of the Abyss.

So please don't twist to be "if X is underused, maybe use it more" as the obvious solution. Things aren't that trivial.

One of the recent UAs was about down time activities. Maybe a month ago? It had carousing and I think information gathering sections. Maybe check it out and see if there's something cool to be clipped from it?

Again, downtime simply isn't used that much in practice, meaning official campaigns.

People talk about downtime without acknowledging that
1) a large chunk of the customer base simply isn't interested in downtime

and...

2) that this includes official printed campaigns

But thanks for the pointer. In the end, I've accepted I couldn't get this newfangled skill to work for me, so I'm doing the thing that works for me: dropping it and moving back to what works for me.

To me, that UA section spends all that time to try to make "investigation" work, but they never explain why it was added in the beginning. What does this skill even add to the game? What insurmountable problems did previous editions have that could only be solved by this new skill...?

To me it's just a problem, never an asset. It's just some designers pet darling, that even the people writing official adventures don't understand.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

 

[Spookykid]

Like it better but I still would prefer something like 3.5, spend a few skill points every level. Maybe max it out at 1/2 your level or something.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

Yeah, I've read all the threads and I simply can't make it work.

In the end, the simplest solution for me is to remove Investigation from the game. That way, there are no more questions and no more corner cases...

Your system is workable, though a little too specific for my tastes these days. What I really enjoy about 5e is the ability to set a DC, choose a stat(skill-s) and let the player roll in a simple, expeditious manner. There are a whole range of players out there who either grok how to use stat/skills or just see it as another roll and keeping things streamlined at the table is always a good thing if it still captures the spirit of the activity in a satisfying way. Breaking away from Perception being a catch-all is important that I find the macro/micro thing does pretty well.

 

[Corwin]

Talking about written campaigns, specifically Out of the Abyss.

So please don't twist to be "if X is underused, maybe use it more" as the obvious solution. Things aren't that trivial.

I'm not sure I understand. Having read, and run, pre-written campaigns myself (though I admit I only played through OotA--never read it), I don't recall them preordaining every roll a group might/will make. Maybe can you give an example from OotA, wherein Perception was improperly used in place of Investigation? So I can understand what you mean.

Again, downtime simply isn't used that much in practice, meaning official campaigns.

I didn't say to use down time. I suggested maybe clipping from the UA some of its ideas to help develop something, with carousing and information gathering, for your houseruled skill system that cover similar ground.

 

[guachi]

Has anyone who owns an AP or two or three gone through the books and determined how often certain skills are called for?

I rarely use Perception and use Investigation all the time in my campaign. But I'm the DM and I'm using converted 1ed and BECMI adventures so I can use what I want.