D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

[Mercule]

Ah, the prime reason why Elminster et al can't ever be plausibly proclaimed not to be Mary Sues. They're doing something as vital as saving the world, off-screen, and succeeding every single time.

In fairness, they only have to fail once for it to be a non-issue.

 

[Staffan]

A distant God is really an oxymoron in DnD. There are plenty of powerful creatures that would be happy to step in to fill that role meaning any "distant" power would be an ex-power pretty quickly.

Eberron's gods (or at least the Sovereign Host/Dark Six pantheon) are not, like those of FR or Planescape, faith-powered. They do not overtly interfere in the world, though their followers say they see the actions of the gods present in everything. When a warrior is defending a pass against a superior force, she will say Dol Arrah is there with her, but Dol Arrah does not manifest in the flesh. That's pretty much how faith works in the real world.

Divine magic is primarily dependent on the faith of the wielder.

And a frozen timeline is OK if you are just putting out a setting guide. If you want to start making splat books, adventures and novels then a frozen time line just tells me that you dont care enough about the world to even try and keep track of the things supposedly happening in it.

Eberron's splat books didn't move the setting forward, but rather provided more depth to the setting in its original state. The Sharn sourcebook provides a lot of information on the city of Sharn, making it much easier for me to run a game there, and provides a lot of plot ideas for me as a DM. It tells me "Here's a thing that could happen." What it does not do is tell me "Oh, and here's a thing that has happened since the core book was released."

For example, some of the leadership of House Deneith have been infiltrated by sinister forces, with the idea being that when the land descends into the chaos of war again, Deneith can step forward and assume control as a force untainted by the intrigue of nations. That's an awesome plot idea that I could build a whole campaign around. What would not be awesome would be to have the book say "War has started up again, and people are becoming disillusioned with the idea of nationalism, and would be ready for some neutral force to take over. House Deneith seems like they would be in the perfect spot." The problem with that is that doing so would invalidate a whole bunch of other potential plot ideas.

And the adventures published were all fairly small-scale: explore a ruin, find a MacGuffin, and so on. You didn't get any adventures about overthrowing king Kaius III or stuff like that.

 

[Shasarak]

Eberron's gods (or at least the Sovereign Host/Dark Six pantheon) are not, like those of FR or Planescape, faith-powered. They do not overtly interfere in the world, though their followers say they see the actions of the gods present in everything. When a warrior is defending a pass against a superior force, she will say Dol Arrah is there with her, but Dol Arrah does not manifest in the flesh. That's pretty much how faith works in the real world.

Divine magic is primarily dependent on the faith of the wielder.

Which is all fine and dandy if Eberron was based in the real world. Unfortunately it is based in DnD where Divine magic is primarily dependent on the level of the wielder which is why I find it, at best, an odd fit.

Eberron's splat books didn't move the setting forward, but rather provided more depth to the setting in its original state. The Sharn sourcebook provides a lot of information on the city of Sharn, making it much easier for me to run a game there, and provides a lot of plot ideas for me as a DM. It tells me "Here's a thing that could happen." What it does not do is tell me "Oh, and here's a thing that has happened since the core book was released."

For example, some of the leadership of House Deneith have been infiltrated by sinister forces, with the idea being that when the land descends into the chaos of war again, Deneith can step forward and assume control as a force untainted by the intrigue of nations. That's an awesome plot idea that I could build a whole campaign around. What would not be awesome would be to have the book say "War has started up again, and people are becoming disillusioned with the idea of nationalism, and would be ready for some neutral force to take over. House Deneith seems like they would be in the perfect spot." The problem with that is that doing so would invalidate a whole bunch of other potential plot ideas.

And the adventures published were all fairly small-scale: explore a ruin, find a MacGuffin, and so on. You didn't get any adventures about overthrowing king Kaius III or stuff like that.

I disagree, I think that a "From the Ashes" box set of Eberron where War had started up again would be an awesome product. The real secret is, as Ed Greenwood suggests. to add two more plot hooks for every one that you answer.

It was almost as if Eberron was specifically designed for a game that was not DnD, or maybe the version of DnD that capped off at level 6 so that you can just stick with the adventures where the PCs need to find the Mcguffin rather then the ones where they teleport into King Kaius's lair and roflstomp him.

 

[Mercule]

There are no "Canon Police" that will take away your D&D licence if you swap campaign elements around.

No, but there is always the complication of new players to the group who don't know what canon you've changed or ignored, even if your group is well versed in it. Sure, you can overcome it, but it ranging from annoying to painful, depending on how much you've tweaked.

I mean, if I ran the Realms, it'd be pretty harsh:
- Five Factiions? Never heard of them. Hate world-spanning organizations. Especially something like the Harpers because good is stupid.
- Lords of Waterdeep? Yeah, as if the rulers of a major city could keep their identities unknown. The city's ruled by a council of guilds. There's some moving in the shadows, but no Illuminati.
- Avatars? Gods walking the world? Stupid. Never happened. Continuity issues? Who cares? Still stupid.
- Drow? Yeah, I guess they exist, but hardly anyone ever sees them. There definitely have never been any even marginally famous good-aligned drow. No, you can't play one. I'd rather you showed up in a Jar Jar Binks costume and talked in character for four hours.
- Underdark? Doesn't exist. Drow and other critters like that eek out an existence in isolated caverns and have a very hard time interacting with one another.
- Undercity? Pretty hard without an Underdark.
- Elminster? Yeah. He used to talk with Mordenkainen and Dalmar. He was in transit when contact was lost with those worlds. As far as we can tell, he will be feeling the pain of being atomized for the rest of eternity. No, even Ao can't save him.
- Khelban? Yeah, he can stay. I just like the name. He won't be relevant to, well, anything. Ever.
- Wall of Souls? Sure. Might as well have a reason for you to fill in that blank on your character sheet because I know you ain't gonna, otherwise.

 

[Aldarc]

Which is all fine and dandy if Eberron was based in the real world. Unfortunately it is based in DnD where Divine magic is primarily dependent on the level of the wielder which is why I find it, at best, an odd fit.

And? How is that at odds with Eberron's religions or clerics?

I disagree, I think that a "From the Ashes" box set of Eberron where War had started up again would be an awesome product. The real secret is, as Ed Greenwood suggests. to add two more plot hooks for every one that you answer.

Nothing is stopping you from playing that sort of campaign in Eberron. The point, however, is that Eberron shares an assumed chronological period that contributes to its particular aesthetic, tone, and genre.

It was almost as if Eberron was specifically designed for a game that was not DnD, or maybe the version of DnD that capped off at level 6 so that you can just stick with the adventures where the PCs need to find the Mcguffin rather then the ones where they teleport into King Kaius's lair and roflstomp him.

Nah, it's not that Eberron is not designed for DnD, but, rather, that you want Eberron to match your assumptions and preferences for DnD: DnD as a game of murder hobos. The idea that Eberron should be "[teleporting] into King Kaius's lair and roflstomp him" attests to a powerplay fantasy completely detached from the world-building that Eberron establishes or any actual regard for political consequences. Furthermore, although King Kaius is a LE vampire, he was also one of the pro-peace leaders who has an invested interest in kicking out the evil cultists from his borders, helping his people recover from the Last War, and maintaining peace among the Five Nations. Plus, Eberron also assumes preventions for what you describe: "Oh, you try to teleport into his castle? You waste your spell. It turns out that his castle is warded by House Kundarak from teleportation."

 

[Shasarak]

And? How is that at odds with Eberron's religions or clerics?

How is the claim that Divine magic is primarily dependent on the faith of the wielder at odds with Eberrons religion? Because of the fact that a warrior defending a pass against a superior force calling on Dol Arrah does not have any Divine magic.

Nothing is stopping you from playing that sort of campaign in Eberron. The point, however, is that Eberron shares an assumed chronological period that contributes to its particular aesthetic, tone, and genre.

I would agree with that if moving the time period forward a few years somehow detracted from the aesthetic, tone and genre.

Nah, it's not that Eberron is not designed for DnD, but, rather, that you want Eberron to match your assumptions and preferences for DnD: DnD as a game of murder hobos. The idea that Eberron should be "[teleporting] into King Kaius's lair and roflstomp him" attests to a powerplay fantasy completely detached from the world-building that Eberron establishes or any actual regard for political consequences. Furthermore, although King Kaius is a LE vampire, he was also one of the pro-peace leaders who has an invested interest in kicking out the evil cultists from his borders, helping his people recover from the Last War, and maintaining peace among the Five Nations. Plus, Eberron also assumes preventions for what you describe: "Oh, you try to teleport into his castle? You waste your spell. It turns out that his castle is warded by House Kundarak from teleportation."

Ok, so what in Eberron specifically stops me from playing it as a game of murder hobos? What stops me from going in and killing a LE Vampire just because he is supposed to be some kind of peacenik? I mean I especially like how his castle is warded even though Eberron specifically has a distinct lack of high level NPCs. I guess they only live long enough to ward something before being killed off so they dont have a chance to over shadow the PCs.

 

[ccs]

No, but there is always the complication of new players to the group who don't know what canon you've changed or ignored, even if your group is well versed in it. Sure, you can overcome it, but it ranging from annoying to painful, depending on how much you've tweaked.

Well that's why we write down the important changes & tell the new players about them. We've even been known to print off a copy of what they'll need to know.

But you know what? Even if we were using a completely homebrewed setting we'd have to make a similar effort anyways for this hypothetical noob....

So your argument against using/altering the FR setting is what?

I mean, if I ran the Realms, it'd be pretty harsh:
- Five Factiions? Never heard of them. Hate world-spanning organizations. Especially something like the Harpers because good is stupid.

Hey, guess what? My characters never heard of those orginizations either!

- Lords of Waterdeep? Yeah, as if the rulers of a major city could keep their identities unknown. The city's ruled by a council of guilds. There's some moving in the shadows, but no Illuminati.

OK. Important guild leaders in WD. Got it. Is WD going to feature prominitly in our game? If so I'll pay attention to their names. Otherwise I'll worry about whatever NPCs you do introduce.

- Avatars? Gods walking the world? Stupid. Never happened. Continuity issues? Who cares? Still stupid.

Might make for good legends. And I don't think my PC would disbelieve them out of hand. Especially as he lvs up....
Me as a player? I agree with you....

- Drow? Yeah, I guess they exist, but hardly anyone ever sees them. There definitely have never been any even marginally famous good-aligned drow. No, you can't play one. I'd rather you showed up in a Jar Jar Binks costume and talked in character for four hours.

Good. I dislike Drow as PCs.

- Underdark? Doesn't exist. Drow and other critters like that eek out an existence in isolated caverns and have a very hard time interacting with one another.

But yet another cool sounding legend. And a great excuse to go adventuring! Let's go find this "Underdark". Where the Drow have awesome weird cities. And loot it!

- Undercity? Pretty hard without an Underdark.

See above, only applied to Waterdeep....

- Elminster? Yeah. He used to talk with Mordenkainen and Dalmar. He was in transit when contact was lost with those worlds. As far as we can tell, he will be feeling the pain of being atomized for the rest of eternity. No, even Ao can't save him..

You know, I wouldn't put it past various wizards & sages to pay bards to make up wild tales about them....

- Khelban? Yeah, he can stay. I just like the name. He won't be relevant to, well, anything. Ever.

Ok.

- Wall of Souls? Sure. Might as well have a reason for you to fill in that blank on your character sheet because I know you ain't gonna, otherwise.

What is this Wall of Souls? Sounds like something we might need to go find on some quest.... Anyways, I don't see a line on my sheet that references it.
But odds are I'll fill it in with some random, abbreviated, non-referenced, note though.

 

[Zardnaar]

I imagine the bean counters crunched some sales info data concerning the company they just bought.
And they saw something like this:
FR sales = $$$$
GH sales = $$$
Other settings sales = $$
Now take into account any potential legal problems with GH, etc.

Conclusion? Sell more FR stuff. Then do just enough with the other titles to maintain copyrights, etc.

Paizo's Lisa Stevens went through the numbers after the WoTC buyout when she worked for them. She discovered.

1. Some of the campaign settings were being sold at a loss. Planescape for example, probably revised Darksun.
2. Adventures were not selling and FR players did not buy non FR adventures (they split their player base)
3. There was virtually no playtesting or customer surveys full stop.
4. FR was selling more than the rest put together.


According to Stan! a no frills setting like Al Qadim was making a slim profit. One of the 1st things they did after the WotC buyout was kill the settings.

 

[Aldarc]

How is the claim that Divine magic is primarily dependent on the faith of the wielder at odds with Eberrons religion? Because of the fact that a warrior defending a pass against a superior force calling on Dol Arrah does not have any Divine magic.

From what I recall, clerics in Eberron, much like in Primeval Thule, typically have their powers unlocked through ritual via the church. The cleric's relationship with the church/temple is generally more important than their relationship with the deity, who are admittedly more distant, at least the Sovereign Host. It's a bit harder to argue that the Silver Flame is distant when it has a much more concrete presence than many deities in Forgotten Realms itself. But some clerics do gain divine power from outside the church, but these tend to be heretics and theologically unorthodox. Could they claim to serve other deities? Sure. But the tendency in Eberron, much like in the real world, is to interpret their divine power through the lens of preexisting faiths. "Oh, my magic comes from my faith in Dol Arrah!" Sure, a demon or some other dark power can claim they are deity, but it turns out that many dark powers themselves also believe they serve the dragon god Khyber.

Ok, so what in Eberron specifically stops me from playing it as a game of murder hobos? What stops me from going in and killing a LE Vampire just because he is supposed to be some kind of peacenik?

There is nothing hardwired from playing Eberron as a typical game of DnD murder hobos. Kill King Kaius if you want, but doing so comes with dire consequences for the entirety of the Five Nations. People don't just randomly kill enemies in Eberron even if they have the power to do so just like in the real world. You can kill the ambassador, but that may come at the price of your life. The king may just be a level 2 aristocrat (per 3E), but have guards who are level 12 fighter/wizards. What stops them from killing the king? Probably the same thing that stops the CIA or Secret Service from killing the president. Oaths. Obligations. Law. Duty. Loyalty. Other personal ambitions. Eberron presents a world of political consequence and not a world for the fantasies of power-gaming murder hobos.

I mean I especially like how his castle is warded even though Eberron specifically has a distinct lack of high level NPCs. I guess they only live long enough to ward something before being killed off so they dont have a chance to over shadow the PCs.

We're talking about the services of House Kundarak, a house that specializes in warding, protection, and, by extension, banking. It's not about not having high level NPCs or overshadowing PCs here. It's about the Dragonmarked houses having centuries of wealth, magical expertise, and guild services at their beck and call that is specialized in providing services pertaining to this task.

 

[Shasarak]

From what I recall, clerics in Eberron, much like in Primeval Thule, typically have their powers unlocked through ritual via the church. The cleric's relationship with the church/temple is generally more important than their relationship with the deity, who are admittedly more distant, at least the Sovereign Host. It's a bit harder to argue that the Silver Flame is distant when it has a much more concrete presence than many deities in Forgotten Realms itself. But some clerics do gain divine power from outside the church, but these tend to be heretics and theologically unorthodox. Could they claim to serve other deities? Sure. But the tendency in Eberron, much like in the real world, is to interpret their divine power through the lens of preexisting faiths. "Oh, my magic comes from my faith in Dol Arrah!" Sure, a demon or some other dark power can claim they are deity, but it turns out that many dark powers themselves also believe they serve the dragon god Khyber.

So what is it? Does Divine Power come from your belief or does it come from following the rules of the Church? What if something else appeared and started to give its followers bonus stuff that "normal" Clerics did not get from their church - suddenly this new religion starts to look pretty tempting. And what are the old Gods going to do about it? Nothing because they are too distant.

There is nothing hardwired from playing Eberron as a typical game of DnD murder hobos. Kill King Kaius if you want, but doing so comes with dire consequences for the entirety of the Five Nations. People don't just randomly kill enemies in Eberron even if they have the power to do so just like in the real world. You can kill the ambassador, but that may come at the price of your life. The king may just be a level 2 aristocrat (per 3E), but have guards who are level 12 fighter/wizards. What stops them from killing the king? Probably the same thing that stops the CIA or Secret Service from killing the president. Oaths. Obligations. Law. Duty. Loyalty. Other personal ambitions. Eberron presents a world of political consequence and not a world for the fantasies of power-gaming murder hobos.

Ok, so what dire consequence would result in taking out fantasy Hitler, I mean King Kaius? I mean other then freeing a population from a terrible undead tyrant? What would the Church of the Silver Flame think about leaving him in charge if they were aware of what he was? And what would it do to their "belief" if the hierarchy ruled that evil had to be suffered to live in the name of peace?

We're talking about the services of House Kundarak, a house that specializes in warding, protection, and, by extension, banking. It's not about not having high level NPCs or overshadowing PCs here. It's about the Dragonmarked houses having centuries of wealth, magical expertise, and guild services at their beck and call that is specialized in providing services pertaining to this task.

House Kundarak still needs high level casters to create its stuff no mater how much handwavium the DM uses. They just conveniently disappear off screen leaving wards and items stamped with "Elmunster". Personally I just dont buy it.