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D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

Mercule

Adventurer
I get the hate in a defensive way, because at this point it is FR or make it up yourself, maybe convert if you happen to be an old timer who has access to a lot of stuff they bought years before. But, to me and my peers who only really started investing in DnD in the last couple of years, it is a binary choice of setting. And that is frustrating for us and hate-inducing for those people who are invested in other settings and would love a chance to see them made anew like the realms were (mechanically, not story-wise, because no one wants to actually do all of that mechanical conversion themselves)

All the lore you guys talk about, all the old modules you recommend. Us new players have no way of knowing about it unless we go looking for it.
This. This is why I'm so hard on the Realms monopoly of 5E.

I like Eberron, and would love to see something done to make it easier for me to use. But... I've got the original guide. To be absolutely truthful, a (good) UA with rules updates is all I need. Give me an Artificer class, stats for the races, some way (feat or otherwise) on how to implement Dragonmarks, and it would be great. I've got enough experience that I could easily put most of this stuff together (the Artificer might be a pain). I just don't have the time.

I also like Greyhawk, but think it's probably time to let it rest, though I'd happily pick up an updated hardcover of the 1983 boxed set -- with or without any mechanics. Dragonlance has kinda neat, but I'm indifferent to Krynn. Never really "got" the appeal of Spelljammer or Planescape. Dark Sun was cool, but not something I'm going to use for every campaign. Birthright lived and died while I was playing WoD, so I'm not invested in it. I'm no more interested in Mystara than in the Realms, probably less (sorry, guys).

The point being, I'm not down on the Realms as the sole setting because I want to see some other setting in its place. I'm not down on it because it's a particularly weak setting (I don't care for it, but the original gray box was just "meh"; I like Planescape, Spelljammer, and Mystara much less than the core/original Realms). I'm down on the Realms being in the position it is because I'm down with any setting being in that position.

D&D is much, much bigger than a single setting. D&D is much more about creating your own setting and any published setting should be about helping you get a start on that. I'm watching the Realms become synonymous with D&D. That's not "managing the D&D brand" or using the Realms to strengthen it. That's killing the D&D brand while using it to promote the Forgotten Realms brand.

The way products are being handled, I wouldn't be incredibly surprised to see a bunch of Realms content moved into the 6E (or 5.5) PHB and/or DMG. They've got the Five Factions in every adventure. Why not just put them into the core rules? The human ethnicities from the Realms already made it into the PHB. Just throw a map in that shows where they come from. The DMG can have info on the governments, major NPCs, etc.). It wouldn't actually be that much more of a hard-push for the Realms. At that point, though, there's really no hope. D&D will have ended and we'll have the "Forgotten Realms Roleplaying Game". Which is why I doubt they'd actually do it -- they'd lose folks like me.

I play D&D because it provides me a bunch of information that's pretty inoffensively generic fantasy that I can use as a foundation for my own settings (sometimes, I do enjoy using a published setting). If I have to weed through a bunch of setting material or explain to folks I'm teaching the game (which I've always done a fair amount of) that the setting the books are using doesn't apply to anything we're doing, then it's not actually helping me.

But, even though 6E probably won't actually be the FRRPG, the game still seems to be drifting that way. Until they put out something that actually competes with the Realms, that's the way it's going to be. Honestly, they don't even have to put something out that competes with the Realms so much as just put something out that doesn't neatly integrate with the Realms -- mention the great dragon migration of 500 years ago, throw in a country name that isn't on the FR map. Put some weird geography in that doesn't fit so well. Whatever. Just do something that cleanly says, "Not everything is in the Realms or starts in the Realms." CoS didn't do that because it was a short jaunt to another plane and there was plenty of support for starting the characters in the Realms.

CoS is like arguing with my kids about cleaning their rooms every week. Yes, it stayed clean that one week in July -- while you were at camp. But you threw all your crap all over the place the second you got home.
 

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Selvarin

Explorer
Right now there is no one all-encompassing book to start with. I suppose for 5th Edition I'd go with Ed Greenwood Presents: Elminster's Forgotten Realms and Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. For background on the past I'd go with the 1st Edition grey boxed FR set. If you're looking for information on a specific region or whatever I'd Google the rest. No need to overload yourself. Other material out there can be interesting or useful but the goal is to actually play and have fun; you're not trying to get a degree in Realmsology.

And yes, it's your Realms to play with, or not.
 

Mercule

Adventurer
You know, I do find those settings impossible to use.

And, why would I want to? If I want to experience the world of Tolkien why not watch the movies. I've heard the Extended Universe for Star Wars is fascinating.

But I would never run a game with those settings. They are too constraining with the types of things that are expected.

Sure, you can play them while ignoring everything from the movies and books and all that, but also a lot of people who would play a star wars game would want to meet Han Solo or Luke or Leah and then I have to put them in the game if that is what they desire.

Why bother? Why not just run a generic space opera game instead of running something specifically in Star Wars. What do I gain of actual value that outweighs the potential I lose?
This is pretty much my take on it, as well. I actually have one player who outright refuses to play Star Wars because of it.

Personally, I think you could do a game in the Star Wars universe, but it would always be off in the corner and totally detached from the main plot (not even a "Hey this is how they got the plans for the Death Star"). I actually had this conversation a while back and determined that the only way I'd run a Star Wars game is if I did it as an alternate timeline where Luke, Leia, Han, etc. didn't even exist such that the PCs could/had to step in and take down the empire. Of course, no Luke means the whole redemption thing is off the table. If the game rules are good, then it might be worthwhile. If they aren't, then I may as well just use Fate/Savage Worlds/Alternity to run a space opera of my own design.

On that note, I've generally used published settings not as an actual setting for the game, but as a source of inspiration for my own settings. I still bought the settings. I just didn't play in them.
 

auburn2

Adventurer
So overall I really like FR and no setting I've seen can compare with it in terms of depth and variance. It really is like a world they created.

There are things about it I don't like. First the way the plot lines have changed with the game, most notably when Gnomes temporarily disappeared from the face of the planet.

With respect to Drizzt, he is ok but I dislike the way he screwed up the ranger class in 1e/2e. Originally Drizzt was a dual wielder not because he was a Ranger but rather because he was a Drow. The Drow are not an FR creation, but rather a Greyhawk creation ported to FR. In 1E all drow could wield 2 weapons (and rangers could not except for daggers and hand axes like every other character). Drizzt could dual wield because he was a Drow. Somewhere along the line someone at TSR got confused and thought that was a Ranger trait and all of a sudden all Rangers could dual wield. 5E remedies this to some degree by making it a fighter style and feat ability.
 

Hussar

Legend
The quote below, describing Tiamat's position in the Realms pretty much encapsulates why I don't use the Realms. If you need that much verbiage to spackle over the inconsistencies in the setting and explain the background, then I'm simple not interested. Not that it's bad. I'm not saying that. I'm saying it's bad for me. I just simply do not care.

QOkay, here's one about recent continuity that I and a few others have been scratching our heads over.

Since third edition, the goddess Tiamat has not been living in Avernus like she has in all the other campaign settings. Powers and Pantheons said that she would officially join the Faerûnian Pantheon in the middle of 1371 DR. Her divine realm since joining has been listed alternately as Heliopolis (in Faiths and Pantheons), Dragon Eyrie (in the Player's Guide to Faerûn) and Banehold, serving Bane (in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide), despite Faiths and Pantheons saying that Bane was one of her enemies.

Tiamat made a cameo in Erin Evans' Fire in the Blood and is described as "Guardian to the Gate of the Second Layer. Latest Vassal of Asmodeus." and it's said that she has her own kingdom in Avernus.

I recently came across this post made by Ms Evans: “Tiamat came up in story summit discussions, which was where Ed Greenwood mentioned that they'd kicked around the idea back in the day that whatever Tiamat consumed was completely destroyed. Which just kind of lit up my whole brain--what a fantastic reason to share territory with this dragon goddess! I'll admit, at the time, I think we were all under the impression that she was placed in Avernus by 4E. I know I was. She's in Avernus in pretty much every other campaign setting, after all, and a lot of the 4E changes did have a streamlining effect. But she was in Banehold for some reason. So this is sort of a smoothing scene to account for that transition. Because Tiamat doesn't deserve to skulk around in Banehold like some kind of beaten pet! She's a Queen! She deserves her own little realm in the Nine Hells!”

So why does she need rescuing from Avernus in the Tyranny of Dragons storyline? I briefly chatted to Wolfgang Baur about this but all he said was that "It was the premise provided by Wizards, and Kobold Press really isn’t in a position to dictate canon to the Wizards team."

AEd spent some time trying to get an official answer for you, and at length abandoned that attempt and spun his own (which of course he has the moral and legal authority to do, although Wizards can of course at some future time supercede what I’m posting below). So, heeere’s Ed:

Tiamat’s physical body, like those of the Chosen of Mystra, had been slowly failing over (much passing) time; regenerating ever more slowly, and afflicting her with internal aches and pains.

Tapping into the power of her growing (“growing” in part because of disaffected members of the Cult of the Dragon who turned to her as “the True One” or “the True Hope”) worship in Faerûn (as she did in 1371 DR, from the point of view of inhabitants of Toril) renewed and strengthened Tiamat, and allowed her to truly become “The Dragon Queen” as her clergy on Toril reverenced her.
Yet this very experience of ailing and aging made Tiamat, until then a creature of bold fury and reckless, aggressive attacks (a “to think is to act” creature) suddenly more paranoid. So she misinformed her clergy—who were in no position to see through her lie and “know” differently—as to her celestial whereabouts (and wealth, and servitors, and vast ruled dominion). She also became more scheming and patient, and determined to spread “parts of” herself into several places, so as to survive the ravages of time and attacks of foes.

Her great kingdoms on Heliopolis and later Dragon Eyrie were both largely fictitious; she “changed locations” from one to the other because intrepid wizards adventuring from the Realms (ambitious members of the Twisted Rune seeking allies or sources of power they could plunder or compel) actually reached Heliopolis—and discovered Tiamat had no “realm” there at all.
What she did have in Heliopolis was a lone spellbound, shriveled lichnee half-mad Netherese archwizard, magically confined in a cave, who was the Listener of the Fiveheaded (he heard the words of prayers made to Tiamat, and “saw”offerings, and yielded up that information when Tiamat mentally visited his mind). If need be, Tiamat’s sentience could “move into” the Listener’s mind and so “be on” Heliopolis, and even use the Listener’s lich body as her own (and survive if her five-headed form was ever destroyed). She apparently used the Listener at least twice to attack foes from behind when they had no idea Tiamat was anything other than in front of them, and alone. (She could also manifest an aspect of herself through him, although if she ever did so in earnest rather than in mere brief experimentation, no one of Toril is aware of it.)

When the Twisted Rune explorers found the Listener and tried to mindscour him for magical lore, they uncovered Tiamat’s secret. Enraged, she entered into the Listener, managed to mentally dominate the Twisted Rune mages, and compelled them to assist her in “relocating” her to Dragon Eyrie by assisting her in mentally destroying and subsuming the draconic deity Azharul (whom she’d long been spying upon as a scheming rival she should someday destroy) and took over his body and rulership, renaming his gigantic and labyrinthine cavern lair as the Cave of Greed (to others in Dragon Eyrie and to priests and sages, it remained “the Dragonspawn Pits of Azharul,” and they merely assumed old Azharul—a fearsome, bad-tempered draconic deity of many long, sharp projecting body-barbs and a mighty mastery of magic—had hit upon a new name for his home). She then used Azharul, assisted by what was left of the Listener and the controlled Twisted Rune wizards, very much as she had done the Listener back on Heliopolis. (The “soft borders” connecting Dragon Eyrie with Avernus allowed Tiamat to visit the Cave of Greed whenever she wanted to, but she apparently did so only once, to convince dragons, both living and spirits, and some abishai, to accompany her to Avernus and fight for her there.)

For all of this time, the “real” Tiamat was in Avernus in the Nine Hells, rebuilding an ever-larger kingdom in the most inhospitable mountains (and rift-like alpine valleys) of that layer (she had long ago been demoted from rulership of that largely-lawless layer because she was so ineffective in preventing the various outcast devils there from repeatedly attempting coups that threatened the dominion of Asmodeus—though the Supreme delved deep into her mind and saw no disloyalty, so he didn’t destroy or otherwise punish her, merely left her to her own devices, reasoning that in building her own power, she would fight against the outcasts and any other intruders far more effectively than she would otherwise—and he also left her with the notion that she could “earn” her “return to rule” if she pleased him enough with her performance; formally, she was given by Asmodeus the duty of guarding the largest and best-known way between Avernus and Dis—the route by which “dumb beasts,” lesser and least devils, and armies gated in from elsewhere would have to pass through, and she fulfilled this duty faithfully by stationing an aspect of herself there that never departed nor neglected this duty).

When the Spellplague struck, it didn’t just affect Toril (and Abeir); its ripples tore through the multiverse, wreaking havoc large and small. Dragon Eyrie disintegrated, and although the plane of the great “Dragon Mountain” was linked to Avernus (and other planes), in the tumult of destruction a stunned and half-crushed Azharul (“physically torn open like a fowl spatchcocked or butterflied for the grill,” as described by one who saw his violent arrival in the Barrens) was hurled violently into Gehenna (Banehold), where an opportunistic Bane pounced on the dazed and physically ruined draconic deity to enslave it—and discovered Tiamat’s presence. And immediately sought to compel and rule her.
Tiamat was furious, of course, but her true self was still in Avernus, and she was wise enough to see that considering the challenges she was facing at the time from various ambitious outcast devils, she could not hope to survive a battle on two fronts—and she would have to exert her full power to defeat Bane in Banehold. So she allowed Bane to “enslave” the part of her that was Azharul, and even served him faithfully, learning his secrets (and relaying them wholly and accurately to Asmodeus as she learned them, which pleased the Overlord of Hell very much). For his part, Bane exults in tyranny and rule, not slaughter and destruction, and so gloated in harassing his new slave in every way he could. And Tiamat suffered all of these indignities and bided her time, learning all she could of Bane’s nature and powers, awaiting her chance.

And when it came—the details aren’t known—she struck ruthlessly, not only freeing herself from Bane’s tyranny and snatching her Azharul body out of Banehold and into Avernus, she drained much of Bane’s power to do so, passing all that she didn’t need to mend the Azharul body and fully link it with her own—so that in Avernus, she has her “true” body, an aspect guarding the Way To Dis, and a “battle body” or fighting body (Azharul) she uses to meet with all others, keeping her true self safe and hidden (so an adventurer encounter, such as can happen in the Rise of Tiamat™ adventure, will be with this body, enabling Tiamat herself to survive unscathed any adventurer attack).

Delighted by the gift of divine power torn from Bane (who survived, lessened in might but not in essentials), Asmodeus offered her the rulership of Avernus once more. Whereupon Tiamat surprised (and touched him) by saying she didn’t want it because she wouldn’t be good at it, that Bel would do a better job and that Asmodeus shouldn’t spurn him and so make him a foe, and that Avernus needed to remain a largely-wild “safety valve” for the Nine Hells, to keep his rule strong—but that she would willingly and devotedly be “his champion” on Avernus, smiting all who worked against him whenever she became aware of their “treason.” So Asmodeus held a great ceremony in which he named Tiamat formally “Guardian to the Gate of the Second Layer,” and his “Latest Vassal.”

He also privately urged her to provide covert magical aid to the imprisoned Zariel, behind Bel’s back, to make sure that Bel didn’t siphon all of Zariel’s power and “become a problem.”

When she did so, she came under Bel’s compulsion, and through their hostile meeting of minds saw that Asmodeus had forewarned and prepared Bel to deal with her, so as to establish firm control over her—imprisoning her in her kingdom in Avernus, so that she “doesn’t get above herself” and kindle personal ambitions.

Tiamat was enraged anew, though she hid her ire from both Bel and Asmodeus, and now believes that all the archdevils of the Nine Hells see her as a “lesser being,” a “mere monster” to be duped and exploited. Determined to be caged nowhere and by no one, she reaches out to her mortal worshippers in the Realms, and conceives of a way to manipulate them into bringing her—or at least an aspect of her—into Toril.

All of which has left her in the situation and location she’s in at the beginning of Hoard of the Dragon Queen.™
There. Hope this is of help.

So saith Ed. Who gave us our first detailed look at the Nine Hells, so many years ago, helped Jeff Grubb as a sounding board when the original Manual of the Planes was being written, and has been tinkering with details of the various conflicting cosmologies of the multiverse ever since.

Knowing Realms fans and scribes as I do, I’m sure this lore will generate lots of questions and objections, so I’m standing by. Dressed in my best red devil Hallowe’en costume, the skintight horny horns rig with the little barbed tail.

love to all,
THO
 

cbwjm

Seb-wejem
The quote below, describing Tiamat's position in the Realms pretty much encapsulates why I don't use the Realms. If you need that much verbiage to spackle over the inconsistencies in the setting and explain the background, then I'm simple not interested. Not that it's bad. I'm not saying that. I'm saying it's bad for me. I just simply do not care.
I honestly think that whole story is an awesome read. It brings in plots and infighting and deception, it's some nice background on Tiamat. They could have just said "this is where she's always been" and left it at that. This way is so much better though.

Sent from my SM-G925I using EN World mobile app
 

Hussar

Legend
Right now there is no one all-encompassing book to start with. I suppose for 5th Edition I'd go with Ed Greenwood Presents: Elminster's Forgotten Realms and Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. For background on the past I'd go with the 1st Edition grey boxed FR set. If you're looking for information on a specific region or whatever I'd Google the rest. No need to overload yourself. Other material out there can be interesting or useful but the goal is to actually play and have fun; you're not trying to get a degree in Realmsology.

And yes, it's your Realms to play with, or not.

I've seen this suggested a few times in this thread, but, it doesn't really convince me of anything. The main draw, as far as I can see, of using the FR is that you have this huge trove of information to draw from. But, if I'm ejecting 99% of that (which is what you're suggesting here), then what's the draw? If all I'm going to use is a couple of source books, why would I choose to use FR and not any of a hundred other settings out there?

Telling me that I can ignore 99% of the material is hardly a selling point for the setting.

I honestly think that whole story is an awesome read. It brings in plots and infighting and deception, it's some nice background on Tiamat. They could have just said "this is where she's always been" and left it at that. This way is so much better though.

Sent from my SM-G925I using EN World mobile app

But, again, missing my point. It's great for you, since you're already invested in the setting. Fantastic. For me, that's a word salad of a bunch of proper nouns that I have no real connection to. Which means if I want to actually use that material, I have a fair bit of homework to do. Again, no thanks. If I have to spend all that time and money (or hunting through the FR wiki) just to understand this, then that's a very large roadblock to anyone new to the setting.

Take this single line:

When the Twisted Rune explorers found the Listener and tried to mindscour him for magical lore, they uncovered Tiamat’s secret.

Who now? Who are the Twisted Rune? Mindscour? What's that? I presume some sort of memory search, but, in context, it appears to be something I should know the meaning of. And that's my point - from the perspective of someone with only a general overview of the Realms, this is gibberish. It has virtually no meaning and no context. So, if I want to actually understand this single point, I'm going to have to go hunting through the Wiki. Again and again and again.

And all that work just so I can understand the background of a single being that doesn't actually appear in the Adventure Path that I'm actually running. ((Or, at least shouldn't appear if the PC's do their jobs :D ))
 
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hawkeyefan

Legend
You know, I do find those settings impossible to use.

And, why would I want to? If I want to experience the world of Tolkien why not watch the movies. I've heard the Extended Universe for Star Wars is fascinating.

But I would never run a game with those settings. They are too constraining with the types of things that are expected.

Sure, you can play them while ignoring everything from the movies and books and all that, but also a lot of people who would play a star wars game would want to meet Han Solo or Luke or Leah and then I have to put them in the game if that is what they desire.

Why bother? Why not just run a generic space opera game instead of running something specifically in Star Wars. What do I gain of actual value that outweighs the potential I lose?

So then it's not really about the Realms then, is it?

The quote below, describing Tiamat's position in the Realms pretty much encapsulates why I don't use the Realms. If you need that much verbiage to spackle over the inconsistencies in the setting and explain the background, then I'm simple not interested. Not that it's bad. I'm not saying that. I'm saying it's bad for me. I just simply do not care.

Need?

I'm sure there are some die hards out there that absolutely think they need an explanation like that from Greenwood himself. But no one actually needs that. It has literally never come up in my campaign. This is my point...you take ad much or as little as you like.

I believe that you've played Dragonlance, right? I remember a thread about Canon and discussion about a gnomish wild mage and if that was "in canon" for the setting. Now, my knowledge of Dragonlance pretty much ends after the "Legends" trilogy, which I read when they came out or shortly thereafter as a kid.

Am I not able to play in the setting? Must I buy sourcebooks or novels about the War of Souls and whatever else followed? Is it not possible for me to have the PCs in my game replace the Companions? Or to have them doing something else entirely?

Canon's decided at the table. Anyone can play in any setting with as little or as much info as they have or like. Sure, certain settings may not appeal to someone based on asthetic reasons or personal taste. I can understand that. I just fon't think this "abundance of info" thing is really a problem, or that NPCs are really a problem.
 
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cbwjm

Seb-wejem
@Hussar I'm not really that invested in the realms. I've read some of them but I don't keep up with the novels and don't really feel the need. I wouldn't even feel the need to do a lot of reading to run an FR game. I have some of the background knowledge but I'd have pick a time and do a little reading to set up a game there, probably pick a location and build up the campaign from there just as I would with a homebrew setting. I can't even remember the last time I had a proper game in FR. I should note that by proper game in FR I mean one set explicitly within that setting, not a game set within that setting where every little bit FR knowledge was brought into play, because really, you don't need to know everything about FR to play in it. No one needs to know who Larloch is or who the heads of the red wizards are, you can play without knowing all that and still have the red wizards as antagonists. Even though many people playing may know who Elminster is, there isn't any need for him to show up and not having him show up doesn't do any disservice to the setting.

Sent from my SM-G925I using EN World mobile app
 
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Selvarin

Explorer
My response was for those who are interested in delving into the Realm and looking for somewhere to start. Was that somehow missed?

If you aren't then that post does not apply.

If you are, then the previous post applies.

As for the rest of the Realms material that isn't referenced in my response, there is just too much. Some of it doesn't even apply, depending on when you start your campaign timeline (Pre-Spellplague, Post-Spellplague, etc. etc.). It is not required reading in order to enjoy adventuring in the Realms. Regardless of Canon/non-Canon, it is supplemental to your campaign. And I can pretty much guarantee WotC will not produce an updated, definitive 'Cyclopedia of the Realms' for FR. That's why they have the Dungeon Masters Guild site with the older material for sale/download.

In any event I wouldn't throw someone into the deep end of the pool, so to speak, whether a game campaign setting or books in general.
 

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