D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

[MoonSong]

No, you have that backwards. The lore of the Realms is fairly consistent, because it has in-game events which explain any discrepancies. It might seem like a HandWave, but in a world with literal gods and god-level wizards, you don't really need to justify it beyond saying that AWizardDidIt.

To contrast, something like Greyhawk is wildly inconsistent, because it doesn't even acknowledge how the reality of the game world changes based on the ruleset you're using. It's asking you to pretend that those inconsistencies aren't there, when they clearly exist for everyone to see. A flimsy explanation is better than no explanation whatsoever. A DeusExMachina is preferable to an outright Retcon.

Die Vecna, die?

 

[billd91]

No, you have that backwards. The lore of the Realms is fairly consistent, because it has in-game events which explain any discrepancies. It might seem like a HandWave, but in a world with literal gods and god-level wizards, you don't really need to justify it beyond saying that AWizardDidIt.

To contrast, something like Greyhawk is wildly inconsistent, because it doesn't even acknowledge how the reality of the game world changes based on the ruleset you're using. It's asking you to pretend that those inconsistencies aren't there, when they clearly exist for everyone to see. A flimsy explanation is better than no explanation whatsoever. A DeusExMachina is preferable to an outright Retcon.

On that we completely disagree. The settings have all been flexible enough that they aren't exclusive to just one edition of the rules. As far as I'm concerned, it's better to just leave the particulars of the mechanics out of it. Very few are significant enough to really require an event to "justify" them.

 

[cbwjm]

On that we completely disagree. The settings have all been flexible enough that they aren't exclusive to just one edition of the rules. As far as I'm concerned, it's better to just leave the particulars of the mechanics out of it. Very few are significant enough to really require an event to "justify" them.

I agree with this. The settings themselves could easily be used not only with different editions of DnD but also wildly different rules sets. If people wanted to use savage worlds, for instance, to run forgotten realms it would work well. The setting gives us the world, the mechanics can be wildly different from whatever edition the setting uses.

Sent from my SM-G925I using EN World mobile app

 

[MackMcMacky]

The classic modules came out late 70's through mid-80's, then Greyhawk started slipping. That was also when the Forgotten Realms arrived on the scene. I guess my question is...Which adventurers were you trying? Was this when AD&D 2.0 came on the scene, or earlier, or later?

With regard to early FR modules, I was not a big fan of the computer game tie-ins or the ones covering Realms-changed-due-to-edition-changes-let's-print-more-cash. That also includes some of the more corporate tie-in adventures that featured Drizzt or one of the other big name uber-characters. Regardless, I'd say I bought some adventures solely because there was Realms material updates included. However, I tended to enjoy the 3rd edition Realms adventures more

Comparing the two, I's day that the Forgotten Realms had richer source material and 'poorer' adventures whereas Greyhawk--aside from the classic boxed set--had poorer/less source material but richer adventures (the Classics). I felt like Greyhawk was cheated out of a greater future because many of those who knew it best and had a good feel for the setting (such as Gygax) stopped managing or contributing at some point. Whether corporate or personal politics or whatever, that kinda petered out.

My opinion is the Forgotten Realms had "more" source material rather than richer source material, much of it was fairly implausible (all the secret leaders of governments for example) or clumsy (failure to understand Von Thunen's Law for example) in execution. Maybe this was addressed in 3rd Edition but I had stopped tossing coins at FR by then. I suspect that the increased importance of powerful NPCs, sweeping events, etc. made module design clumsy and awkward. The shift to storyline and away from the "practical" stuff wasn't helpful. DMs were now asked to run some other DM's plotting rather than build from a more basic premise and make it their own. Add in the need to showcase Elminster and other NPCs and Factions and the focus shifts from player agency.

 

[Caliban]

My opinion is the Forgotten Realms had "more" source material rather than richer source material, much of it was fairly implausible (all the secret leaders of governments for example) or clumsy (failure to understand Von Thunen's Law for example) in execution. Maybe this was addressed in 3rd Edition but I had stopped tossing coins at FR by then. I suspect that the increased importance of powerful NPCs, sweeping events, etc. made module design clumsy and awkward. The shift to storyline and away from the "practical" stuff wasn't helpful. DMs were now asked to run some other DM's plotting rather than build from a more basic premise and make it their own. Add in the need to showcase Elminster and other NPCs and Factions and the focus shifts from player agency.

Show me on the character sheet where the Forgotten Realms touched you.

 

[ccs]

Quote Originally Posted by ccs View Post
As for not running it as written? Well, I can't. Nor am I worried about it. Because:
1) Over the years we've run adventures that've altered the FR at our table in ways quite different to what TSR/WoTC have eventually written. They're late to my party, not the other way around....
2) I haven't read a FR novel in 25 years. And I'm not going to. But even if I did? The novels =/= script for the games I run.
3) The 4e changes & changes back don't apply to my game.

Which means you are not actually using the realms, you just use a 3rd party map for your games.

No, I'm running a Realms game with the FR material that I have. + the option of Googling anything else.

But I have news for you. Bad news. By your faulty line of thinking? No one else is running an FR game either. Nor are they capable of doing so. CAN NOT BE DONE. Not even by you.
Because once your group introduces your own characters? Once you decide what some NPC does (even if it's just some random orc charging across the battle mat)? Once you write up some adventure?
You've deviated from the script provided by TSR/WoTC. You're no longer using their world. You're using some alternate version. Just like me. Only I deviated 31(?) years ago.

As for my map being 3rd party? Nope.
Thanks to corporate buyouts my map is still 1st party. Just old & not as pretty as ones by the current artist.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Now this has got my complete attention, as before now I'd never heard of such a thing!

Lan-"and I probably don't even want to think about the kind of $ it'll take to get a copy of Tarantis"-efan

That never even occurred to me. I bought mine back in the 80s.

How much they go for now? I'll just wander over to the internet and check…

…Ouch! Nostalgia is expensive.

This touches on something mentioned once and worth talking about more I think.

I don't use the Realms or any other setting per se, because I like homebrewing my world. I'm a writer, I enjoy it.

However, even as I slowly change things, I still use a lot of Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk inspired material... and honestly at times I don't know which is which.

Because I'm a pretty young gamer and I've never seen material published for Greyhawk. I owned the 3.5 books when I was young (never got to play) so I like using dieties like Pelor whom I have learned is Greyhawk. Or Corellon and Moradin who I have no idea where they hail from(though I've also tried to research more dieites for those pantheons and made some changes to the whole thing).

And, even the biggest fans of the Realms have to admit, no body else is getting any love these days from official WOTC material.

Until this thread, I didn't know Birthright was a DnD setting, I thought it was an old game based on DnD. Al Quadim is a name I've heard on these forums, but other than a single piece of cover art and "fantasy arabia" I know nothing about it. I played a 4e Darksun game, but beyond what the DM had happen, I know next to nothing about that world.

This only kind of bothers me, like I said, I homebrew some stuff, but I'm not good at creating entirely new named super-powerful beings, I steal a lot of material from what I can google. But, wouldn't it be nice to have something else?

I don't even care if it is another old setting, but I'd really like something new.

And what I do know of all these other settings are only because I'm on these forums so much. Go into my local gaming stores and you have Pathfinder and you have Forgotten Realms DnD books, then Warhammer 40k and Star Wars.

I get the hate in a defensive way, because at this point it is FR or make it up yourself, maybe convert if you happen to be an old timer who has access to a lot of stuff they bought years before. But, to me and my peers who only really started investing in DnD in the last couple of years, it is a binary choice of setting. And that is frustrating for us and hate-inducing for those people who are invested in other settings and would love a chance to see them made anew like the realms were (mechanically, not story-wise, because no one wants to actually do all of that mechanical conversion themselves)

All the lore you guys talk about, all the old modules you recommend. Us new players have no way of knowing about it unless we go looking for it.

 

[Aldarc]

This gets to one of my (admittedly subjective) rubbing points about the Realms. Greyhawk is the setting where characters can immerse themselves in classic, epic adventures, while Forgotten Realms is the setting where novels happen and the characters get the opportunity to kinda participate.

 

[Maxperson]

This gets to one of my (admittedly subjective) rubbing points about the Realms. Greyhawk is the setting where characters can immerse themselves in classic, epic adventures, while Forgotten Realms is the setting where novels happen and the characters get the opportunity to kinda participate.

If you don't read the novels, the Realms still happens with the PCs front and center. If you do read the novels, the Realms still happens with the PCs front and center. The novels also have nothing to do with the PCs, so they don't "kinda" get to participate in the novels at all. There are also novels for Greyhawk. Also, just because there aren't novels for say, Birthright, doesn't mean that other stories with NPCs don't happen outside of the stories the PCs are partaking in. Campaign settings are large and there are a number of powerful people outside the PCs in all of them. They didn't get to be high level from sitting on their duff letting PCs do everything.

 

[dagger]

This gets to one of my (admittedly subjective) rubbing points about the Realms. Greyhawk is the setting where characters can immerse themselves in classic, epic adventures, while Forgotten Realms is the setting where novels happen and the characters get the opportunity to kinda participate.

Never seen this in practice and have been using FR since the grey box (which I still use). I also looked in the Grey Box, 2e Boxes, and 3e guide and didn't see anything about this. Novels are irrelevant.