D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

[Zardnaar]

You do realise that @Caliban has been around since 2002 and has over 5500 posts under his belt. He might not know everyone or have plugged into the hivemind and its overmind, like you, but I'm sure he is fairly familiar with basic human interaction.

That is nice, but one can tell by that he doesn't post much. I'm not making a judgement call just certain posters post certain ways, others are female, some are XYZ profession, others have designed XYZ for EN5ider, some are from the WotC boards.

I remember trivia it seems.

 

[Caliban]

That is nice, but one can tell by that he doesn't post much. I'm not making a judgement call just certain posters post certain ways, others are female, some are XYZ profession, others have designed XYZ for EN5ider, some are from the WotC boards.

I remember trivia it seems.

I'm not making a judgment call...just saying I only post when I have something pertinent to say...except now, because this isn't really pertinent to anything...just saying.

 

[Maxperson]

Okay. But I think in attempting to refute Caliburn101's personal observation, you are perhaps missing the point. I don't think that these sort of statements are necessarily meant to be understood as hardwired rules or canon law, nor does Caliburn101 claim that this is a rule. That is appears to be a non-existent argument of your own making. It's a pithy observation based on their personal experience, one that you clearly don't share. Sometimes though it is just a subjective feeling that settings, worlds, and campaigns impart on the psyche of players (or even GMs).

It's not my job to try and figure out of someone is giving a personal opinion when they don't post in in opinion format. He made a statement of fact. Here is is, "It's just a little lacking in unique flavour and PCs are like mayflies - saving the world one minute, forgotten the next, and all the while Elminster and Drizzt retain their vast fame, overshadowing everyone else.". There is no opinion being stated there. He's stating that PCs are like mayflies and are forgotten. He's stating that they are overshadowed by the NPCs. If someone states something as if it's a fact, I'm going to respond as it is written, not how he might have meant it if it were written a different way.

In some settings, you can have the feeling of being A hero, but you will never be THE hero(es) of the setting. It's about like how at the end of the day, it's Frodo, Sam, and (arguably) Smaegol who succeed in destroying the One Ring and not you. It's Luke Skywalker who confronts Vader and the Emperor, while his closest rebel friends destroy the shields on Endor's moon and not you. It's Harry Potter who is the Chosen One that will defeat Lord Voldemort and not you. It is why I don't run RPGs set in Middle Earth, Star Wars, the Potterverse, or other settings. At best, I may run a campaign "inspired by" setting X but as a GM the idea of running a campaign in these settings sometimes comes with the feeling of dancing on tip toes to avoid treading on feet, while the idea of being a player in these settings leaves me feeling like I'm having to design my character around these characters. Let me be clear here. I am not saying that people cannot run RPGs set in these settings, as that is demonstrably false, but, rather, that this can be the case for some people. This is not an experience or feeling that can be invalidated, as people clearly do experience this problem. If you have never experienced this, then bully for you, but this is not some isolated experience people have had in regards to Forgotten Realms and other settings so I don't think that this is something that one should be callously dismissive about.

You seem to be missing the forest for the trees. Frodo and Sam, et al. did their thing and they are done. There's nothing about them to indicate that they will be going on more super adventures, or that their existence someone prevents the PCs set after the Lord of the Rings ends from being the super big heroes. Nor are they undertaking any number of other major events that the PCs are handling. Middle Earth as a roleplaying game is not one single quest. The same goes with Star Wars, which if you know anything about the Star Wars universe is about one gigantic threat after another. The emperor is actually and Vader are just one thing among many that are just as bad and don't involve Luke who is teaching students now. Ditto for Potter. Lots of bad stuff that Potter isn't cut out for and handling.

If you want those things to overshadow you, you can make it that way, but it's not inherently so.

This perception, feeling, sense of immersive alienation can be stumbling block for some players when playing a well-tread setting. It's a bizarre spectre at the back of your mind, whispering into your ear, reminding you that your characters will play second fiddle to "more important" and permanent characters attached to the setting. While this is true for all settings to an extent, as the world is inhabited by NPCs with varying degrees of import and clout above your characters, sometimes the scope of this problem is magnified by the fiction and its media representation. This setting may exist as the world of these characters who are found in these novels, movies, television series, comic books, video games, and whatever else. Middle Earth is not just Middle Earth; it's the world of the War of the Ring and its associated characters. The Potterverse is not just an isolated wizarding universe in the popular imagination, but the world where Harry Potter, Hermione Granger, Ron Weasley, and association company exist.

I'm not big on cutting people slack when they go out of their way to be upset by something. In order to overshadow things those NPCs have to be pulled from the background where those NPCs dwell and placed in the forefront with the PCs.

I also don't think it's reasonable to think that in a word of millions, they are the only ones who are, or will reach high level. High level NPCs will exist in pretty much every setting, so if you're going to go out of your way to feel overshadowed in the Realms, you should be doing that for every other setting, too.

 

[Maxperson]

Some of the modules I've stared at would lead many to feel the PCs were overshadowed.

I don't do much with modules. Can you give examples?

 

[prosfilaes]

Every sourcebook details it. ... Pathfinder CAN be played without Golarion, but as far as Paizo is concerned, Golarion = Pathfinder.

And I rarely see any PF players complain about that. It boggles my mind.

That's not true; the hardback rulebooks, with exception for mention of the gods, are setting independent. (There are a couple setting based hardbacks, and the new Adventurer's Guide has a lot of setting specific material.) There are complaints, but we know that Paizo can't sell us Eberron or Dark Sun or any of the other older campaign settings that WotC can. Also, Pathfinder has been under the OGL for a long time that (current) D&D was not, and more completely than D&D has ever been (i.e. you can use the Advanced Player's Guide, but not WotC's 3E or 5E equivalents), so there's a lot of 3rd-party options for settings that can use everything. And Paizo is a small company that's pretty open, so it's easier for players to understand that they're getting what Paizo can give them. Huge mega-conglomerates like Hasbro have trouble smaller, more transparent companies don't.

D&D : Forgotten Realms :: Pathfinder : Golarion.

"D&D 5 : Forgotten Realms", maybe. That is a big part of the problem.

 

[Remathilis]

That's not true; the hardback rulebooks, with exception for mention of the gods, are setting independent. (There are a couple setting based hardbacks, and the new Adventurer's Guide has a lot of setting specific material.).

So, about what the 5e PHB, DMG, and MM have in terms of setting?

I own the Core Rulebook, GameMastery Guide, Advanced Player's Guide, and Bestiaries 1-4. They aren't shy about "need an example on how to use this? In Golarion..." Plenty of examples pop up; traits, the Great Beyond, deities, etc.

There are complaints, but we know that Paizo can't sell us Eberron or Dark Sun or any of the other older campaign settings that WotC can. Also, Pathfinder has been under the OGL for a long time that (current) D&D was not, and more completely than D&D has ever been (i.e. you can use the Advanced Player's Guide, but not WotC's 3E or 5E equivalents), so there's a lot of 3rd-party options for settings that can use everything. .

No, Paizo can't make Eberron or Dark Sun, but they COULD make a pulp setting, a steampunk setting, a gothic horror setting, a sword-and-sandals setting, etc. Paizo hasn't bothered. The only "new" setting they are creating is StarFinder's planetary system, and even IT references Golarion!

Not sure what the OGL has to do with anything though; what 3rd parties do don't effect what the mothership company does. I mean, by that token D&D has three fully supported settings: Forgotten Realms, Primeval Thule, and Middle Earth...

And Paizo is a small company that's pretty open, so it's easier for players to understand that they're getting what Paizo can give them. Huge mega-conglomerates like Hasbro have trouble smaller, more transparent companies don't..

Harbo doesn't produce D&D. Wizard's of the Coast does. And WotC only provides Hasbro sale's numbers quarterly, otherwise Hasbro doesn't care much. WotC's D&D division is about the size of Pathfinder's design division. Effectively, all D&D has as a leg-up on Pathfinder is that is can rely on Mother Hasbro for some help in leveraging its IP; but it doesn't help WotC with producing RPG books.

"D&D 5 : Forgotten Realms", maybe. That is a big part of the problem.

Well of course; WotC doesn't sell D&D 1-4 anymore.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Except...no one is making you do this with the Forgotten Realms. If you don't have the supplements with the extra info and don't feel like researching them online...don't.

Use what you have and ignore the rest.

Why is this not an acceptable answer? I'm truly confused.

For me, and perhaps a few others, it is the "Use what you have" that starts some weirdness.

I don't have almost anything.

Like, I know the Zhentarim are evil bad guys and spies... but beyond that I know nothing. I could use them in a game, it's a cool name and I'm bad at names anyways.

And let's say I look up a map and decide to play a game in some random city, I literally just pulled up a map and zoomed in. Looks like Westgate. So, either I can just use the name and nothing else... which is fine I guess, but really at that point why am I using the realms? The idea isn't to only troll for names. I could just use a random name generator for that.

So I look up Westgate, and it's near the Dragonmere so I should probably look that up. Looks like the Dragonmere is connected to something called the Dragonfall, that's cool. Creator Races, what the heck is that, is that important to my game? I don't know, better do some reading just to make sure.

Looks like this map has something called the Ruins of Starmantle a little to the south. Ruins are great adventuring spots. What are the odds there is a lot of backstory involved in those ruins? That I'm going end up reading, and figuring out what to do with because it is what? Less than a three day walk from Westgate. And there is this place called Cormyr to the North. Big name, I even vaguely recognize it as one of the major kingdoms. Better learn something about it since it is right there across the way from where I'm starting.

By the way, I didn't bother looking up anything after the Dragonmere, but I am fairly certain that I could have followed wiki links for hours just from this tiny subsection of a map I looked up. And I zoomed in as close as I could and there are dozens of more place names and therefore stories within less than a weeks travel of this place I just randomly picked.


So, having absolutely no materials as a start (though I will admit some knowledge of the realms because I've been posting on forums like this for years now) I have to start looking things up if I want to do more than steal the names from the places. And once you start looking things up, everything begins to cross-reference and you don't know when to stop, because while this war may sound unimportant, it could end up having changed something massive or some place nearby could have been a big battle site, and then you're down the rabbit hole again looking things up so that you know what this place is that your players are going to.

And I rarely see any PF players complain about that. It boggles my mind.

Why aren't the PF boards full of people demanding new settings? Why aren't there "Why Golarion is hated?" threads? Seriously, why aren't people on Paizo's boards demanding APs that don't deal with Golarion, or refusing to buy books that say "X of Golarion" on them?

If I may take a stab with very little knowledge of the PF fan-base or game.


Because unlike D&D Pathfinder has never had another setting.

If what you say is true Pathfinder has always been set in this one place, and has never been set anywhere else.

D&D has what? A dozen unused settings? Settings that used to exist and got support. Settings that were their own thing before being eaten by the Realms.

In the how ever many years Pathfinder has been out, people have just come to accept it is a game with a single supported setting. But D&D has never been that, not 100%, even know as we complain there is an acknowledgement that these other settings exist and could be used.

That is a pretty big difference in expectations.

 

[prosfilaes]

It's not my job to try and figure out of someone is giving a personal opinion when they don't post in in opinion format. He made a statement of fact. Here is is, "It's just a little lacking in unique flavour and PCs are like mayflies - saving the world one minute, forgotten the next, and all the while Elminster and Drizzt retain their vast fame, overshadowing everyone else.". There is no opinion being stated there. He's stating that PCs are like mayflies and are forgotten. He's stating that they are overshadowed by the NPCs. If someone states something as if it's a fact, I'm going to respond as it is written, not how he might have meant it if it were written a different way.

No, that is not a statement of fact. "It's just a little lacking in unique flavour" is clearly an opinion, as it's clearly subjective. "PCs are like mayflies and are forgotten." The first part is a simile and the second part is clearly true if you take it literally.

High level NPCs will exist in pretty much every setting, so if you're going to go out of your way to feel overshadowed in the Realms, you should be doing that for every other setting, too.

Page 7 of the 3E Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting offers us a full page on Elminister, 35th level character. Elsewhere it's easy to find a dozen examples of NPCs over 20th level. Taking the 3E Eberron Campaign Setting, I don't see any NPCs over 20th level, and I found a 3rd level cleric that's 20th level in his kingdom, and a 20th level awakened pine tree druid, but I think the rest I saw were under 15 and most under 10. Also, again page 7 of the FRCS is spent on Elminster, and many, many NPCs get a half-page or more to detail them, whereas for the ECS e.g. "(LN male hobgoblin, fighter 13)" suffices and then a paragraph about character. That is, 3E Eberron has no NPCs of such level the PCs may never reach, and does not present NPCs as a major thing about the setting, whereas the 3E FRCS does.

Likewise Golarion. Is there a single high-level good NPC in Golarion? I don't know of any. There are some named high-level to super high-level evil NPCs in the setting, but generally high-level PCs end up the only possible response to problems they're called to. And as for "I don't know of any", that's important, because I don't feel that NPCs I don't know about are overshadowing my PC.

At the end of the Zeitgeist and original Dragonlance Adventure Paths, the PCs were clearly the most powerful people around and the only people who could make the necessary world-shaking changes. That's not true in FR; there will be multiple NPCs, Chosen of the Gods 10 levels above the PCs.

(I understand that 5E has changed some things. It's not necessarily the FR we're reacting to, however.)

I'm not big on cutting people slack when they go out of their way to be upset by something.

I read this when someone doesn't like something you do, you'll badger them until they admit they should like it.

 

[Caliban]

For me, and perhaps a few others, it is the "Use what you have" that starts some weirdness.

I don't have almost anything.

Like, I know the Zhentarim are evil bad guys and spies... but beyond that I know nothing. I could use them in a game, it's a cool name and I'm bad at names anyways.

And let's say I look up a map and decide to play a game in some random city, I literally just pulled up a map and zoomed in. Looks like Westgate. So, either I can just use the name and nothing else... which is fine I guess, but really at that point why am I using the realms? The idea isn't to only troll for names. I could just use a random name generator for that.

So I look up Westgate, and it's near the Dragonmere so I should probably look that up. Looks like the Dragonmere is connected to something called the Dragonfall, that's cool. Creator Races, what the heck is that, is that important to my game? I don't know, better do some reading just to make sure.

Looks like this map has something called the Ruins of Starmantle a little to the south. Ruins are great adventuring spots. What are the odds there is a lot of backstory involved in those ruins? That I'm going end up reading, and figuring out what to do with because it is what? Less than a three day walk from Westgate. And there is this place called Cormyr to the North. Big name, I even vaguely recognize it as one of the major kingdoms. Better learn something about it since it is right there across the way from where I'm starting.

By the way, I didn't bother looking up anything after the Dragonmere, but I am fairly certain that I could have followed wiki links for hours just from this tiny subsection of a map I looked up. And I zoomed in as close as I could and there are dozens of more place names and therefore stories within less than a weeks travel of this place I just randomly picked.


So, having absolutely no materials as a start (though I will admit some knowledge of the realms because I've been posting on forums like this for years now) I have to start looking things up if I want to do more than steal the names from the places. And once you start looking things up, everything begins to cross-reference and you don't know when to stop, because while this war may sound unimportant, it could end up having changed something massive or some place nearby could have been a big battle site, and then you're down the rabbit hole again looking things up so that you know what this place is that your players are going to.

And that can be the fun part, if you like that kind of thing. I certainly did for about 10 years or so.

But if you don't feel like doing it...don't. Just use the maps and the names.

Or use a different setting if it bothers you. Or create your own setting if you are so inclined.

The point I'm trying to makes is that you can use as much of the Realms lore as you want, even if that amount is "none of it" or "what I could find in 30 minutes of online research" or "whatever is contained in the SCAG". Some people like to spend hours researching stuff, but don't feel like you have too.

This is a hobby, not a job. If you aren't enjoying it, change things until you do enjoy it. (With the usual caveat of a having one or more Realms enthusiasts in your player group - if the players know more Realms lore than you do and insist on getting everything correct...don't set your games in the Forgotten Realms. No one is going to be happy...)

That should be the reason we do it.

 

[MoonSong]

And? I should be insulted because I haven't done years of research on people who post on a Rules Forum ? Please.

ccs is the one who decided they wanted to play the "I'm a better person than you" passive/aggressive insult game and escalate the situation.

Don't try to make excuses for them.

CCS is a he... n_n