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D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

Aldarc

Legend
The Faerunian pantheon used to be a half-dozen or so desperate panthons as well (Netherese, Jamdathian, etc.) that, other than in Mulhorand and Chult, have since merged. Something similar is happening in Greyhawk, bit there just hasn't been as much time for the process to complete since the Twin Cataclysms...
And those were more interesting times in the Realms. I do think, and you can correct me on this, but there is a bizarre obsession sometimes in Forgotten Realms deific soap opera with "portfolios." I don't know how we even were saddled with this cringeworthy term "portfolio" when talking about theological associations, roles, and spheres of influence. And while the idea of deities having shrinking and expanding influences over aspects of the world has basis in the history of religions (and Greyhawk), it's taken to such an incredibly inorganic extreme in the fiction of Forgotten Realms, almost to the point of farce. I half expect that the deities of Faerun do exchange manilla envelopes containing legal paperwork regarding their theological domains. "Here you go, Malar. Here is my divine portfolio containing 'crazy stray cats,' as you have rightfully seized, but I will keep my portfolios containing 'cute Internet cat memes' for the time being. The paperwork checks out all fine with the heavenly legal office and Ao. Pleasure doing business with you."

It would be if it were true, which it isn't. I've played and run the Realms since 1e and I've never seen the rule stating that PCs are to be forgotten, or that Elminster and the others are to overshadow the PCs. As a result of that rule not being present, those two things have never happened in a game that I have played in or run.
Okay. But I think in attempting to refute Caliburn101's personal observation, you are perhaps missing the point. I don't think that these sort of statements are necessarily meant to be understood as hardwired rules or canon law, nor does Caliburn101 claim that this is a rule. That is appears to be a non-existent argument of your own making. It's a pithy observation based on their personal experience, one that you clearly don't share. Sometimes though it is just a subjective feeling that settings, worlds, and campaigns impart on the psyche of players (or even GMs).

In some settings, you can have the feeling of being A hero, but you will never be THE hero(es) of the setting. It's about like how at the end of the day, it's Frodo, Sam, and (arguably) Smaegol who succeed in destroying the One Ring and not you. It's Luke Skywalker who confronts Vader and the Emperor, while his closest rebel friends destroy the shields on Endor's moon and not you. It's Harry Potter who is the Chosen One that will defeat Lord Voldemort and not you. It is why I don't run RPGs set in Middle Earth, Star Wars, the Potterverse, or other settings. At best, I may run a campaign "inspired by" setting X but as a GM the idea of running a campaign in these settings sometimes comes with the feeling of dancing on tip toes to avoid treading on feet, while the idea of being a player in these settings leaves me feeling like I'm having to design my character around these characters. Let me be clear here. I am not saying that people cannot run RPGs set in these settings, as that is demonstrably false, but, rather, that this can be the case for some people. This is not an experience or feeling that can be invalidated, as people clearly do experience this problem. If you have never experienced this, then bully for you, but this is not some isolated experience people have had in regards to Forgotten Realms and other settings so I don't think that this is something that one should be callously dismissive about.

This perception, feeling, sense of immersive alienation can be stumbling block for some players when playing a well-tread setting. It's a bizarre spectre at the back of your mind, whispering into your ear, reminding you that your characters will play second fiddle to "more important" and permanent characters attached to the setting. While this is true for all settings to an extent, as the world is inhabited by NPCs with varying degrees of import and clout above your characters, sometimes the scope of this problem is magnified by the fiction and its media representation. This setting may exist as the world of these characters who are found in these novels, movies, television series, comic books, video games, and whatever else. Middle Earth is not just Middle Earth; it's the world of the War of the Ring and its associated characters. The Potterverse is not just an isolated wizarding universe in the popular imagination, but the world where Harry Potter, Hermione Granger, Ron Weasley, and association company exist.

The Forgotten Realms presents a similar issue, particularly for some people familiar with the settings. It's the D&D setting where the 90 percent of fiction described by Sturgeon's Law applies, as their novels have persistently cluttered the Sci-Fi/Fantasy section of book stores before I even knew what Forgotten Realms or D&D was. I personally have not had the problem with high powered NPCs running around Forgotten Realms. But it is still the world where these prominent characters frolic and play and the world of their associated shallow fiction. They are the unwanted burger toppings that forever flavors this world. I dislike the lingering taste they leave in my mouth, that lingering taste that persists even when I discard them like the unwanted sour pickles and relish that comes by default on my burger.
 
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MackMcMacky

First Post
But, again, we're right back to "just ignore stuff".

My ENTIRE problem is the fact that that is NOT a selling point for the setting. Yes, I am completely aware that I can just ignore stuff. But, if I'm ignoring stuff, then what's the selling point of Forgotten Realms? What differentiates the setting from any other setting?

To boil it right down, what's in it for me?



Telling me that Greyhawk has too many gods is again, not a selling point for Forgotten Realms. I have precisely the same problem (although to a lesser extent) with Greyhawk as I do with FR. I remember when I ran the Savage Tide Adveture Path. I figured I'd dive into Greyhawk lore and try to really do the setting justice.

Holy crap there's a lot of material for Greyhawk. There's like 22 or so Oerth Journals, each one weighing in at about 30 pages of pretty dense type. Never minding any of the primary sources as well. I REALLY have no interest in a setting with 600+ pages of setting material. Again, wall of material is a non-starter for me.

Compare to Scarred Lands, a setting I did get heavily into until they started crapping out books at an alarming rate. If you confine yourself to Scarn, and not the other continents, you've got about 6 hardcovers and about a dozen soft covers. Again, to me? Too much. I got the original hardcovers, and then just gave up on the setting, despite running it in 3e for several years.

If you can't give me a setting in a single 100 (ish) page book, I am simply not interested anymore. Modules are a bit different, since those are meant to be used at the table. But reference books? Yeah, I'll give you about 1 book now until I lose interest.
The Oerth Journals are some other DM's homebrew stuff. In this case, ignoring stuff does apply.

I looked at the Oerth Journals a long time ago and quickly decided they weren't much value to me.
 

MackMcMacky

First Post
It would be if it were true, which it isn't. I've played and run the Realms since 1e and I've never seen the rule stating that PCs are to be forgotten, or that Elminster and the others are to overshadow the PCs. As a result of that rule not being present, those two things have never happened in a game that I have played in or run.
Some of the modules I've stared at would lead many to feel the PCs were overshadowed.
 

Mirtek

Hero
It's just a matter of different mindsets.

There are those who are bothered by their PCs not being the most important heroes in the world.

There are those not bothered by their PCs not being the most important heroes in the world while not being bothered by the deeds of the heavy lifters in the background.

There are those not only being not bothered by their PCs not being the most important heroes in the world while not being bothered by the deeds of the heavy lifters in the background, but actively wanting their PCs tagging along supporting the heavy lifters.

FR is just more for type 2 and 3, with the adventures featuring the important NPC from the novels being specifically aimed at type 3
 

Caliban

Rules Monkey
I don't know, with 5e's arcane xp budgets I have problems creating an adventure that won't screw with party balance. (I had problems with 4e's one, but at least with that one the whole party was on equal footing and you didn't have to plan so much ahead)

I don't use the XP budget. The budget is based on a 4-5 person party with 27 point buy, no feats, and no multi-classing. I give my players an extra feat and a slightly higher point buy, so I just throw whatever feels appropriate at them. If they are curb stomping a battler, I either let them have the win and feel like bad-asses, or a second or third wave shows up to give them a challenge.

If they are having more trouble with the fight than I expected them too...then they have a really tough fight and I'll let them retreat if they decide they can't handle it.

I also don't give out XP, I use milestones. They level up whenever they accomplish something significant.
 

Mirtek

Hero
How many gods are there in Forgotten Realms? Several hundred I believe.
~ 120 actually. Just about as many as in Greyhawk, whith many shared accross all D&D settings while the specific deities are equal in number to cancel each other so both settings have roughly the same total.
 

Aldarc

Legend
It's just a matter of different mindsets.

There are those who are bothered by their PCs not being the most important heroes in the world.

There are those not bothered by their PCs not being the most important heroes in the world while not being bothered by the deeds of the heavy lifters in the background.

There are those not only being not bothered by their PCs not being the most important heroes in the world while not being bothered by the deeds of the heavy lifters in the background, but actively wanting their PCs tagging along supporting the heavy lifters.

FR is just more for type 2 and 3, with the adventures featuring the important NPC from the novels being specifically aimed at type 3
I would like to take a moment to lift up the excellent point that you raise here that Forgotten Realms caters to a different mindset, because that does help explain why some people experience or perceive a problem that others do not. I'm not entirely sure if I agree with your categories of 1-3 that you present here, but I don't think it's important enough of a point to press, as I think you mean it to be a reductionistic, but illustrative, means of highlighting that different mindsets exist and not as absolute or definitive categories.

That said, I hope that you don't mind me briefly expanding on my tirade a bit. Earlier I described the phenomenon of this mindset in terms of dancing around these characters or uncomfortably dancing on tip toes. So I will say that I don't need or want to dance in the spotlight. I don't need or want to be the best dancer on the floor. I don't need or want the entire dance floor for myself to dance. I do, however, enjoy the feeling of having enough room for my friends and I to dance comfortably. And I tend to experience that problem more acutely with certain dancing establishments (i.e. settings) than others.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
~ 120 actually. Just about as many as in Greyhawk, whith many shared accross all D&D settings while the specific deities are equal in number to cancel each other so both settings have roughly the same total.


Just to hop onto the God discussion for a small rant.

I despise how some settings seem to handle the various Deities. One of the major reasons I ended up creating my own homebrew was the fact I was sick of seeing "This is THE God of War {Oh by the way the dwarves have a god who also does war things} And this is THE God of Magic {oh by the way the elves have a god who also does magic things}" followed closely by "There are no Human gods, humans just worship THE gods who are the most important to everyone"


That drove me up the wall. So, I did some wiki diving, found what deities I could for the various races (For all that FR has sooo much information, I never seem to be able to find the kind of information I want on these Wikis for the various deities) and have been cobbling together different faiths for each race ever since. I also got rid of all gods and goddesses of nature and magic, to make room for Primal Spirits and make magic more fundamental to the universe.
 

Caliban

Rules Monkey
Just to hop onto the God discussion for a small rant.

I despise how some settings seem to handle the various Deities. One of the major reasons I ended up creating my own homebrew was the fact I was sick of seeing "This is THE God of War {Oh by the way the dwarves have a god who also does war things} And this is THE God of Magic {oh by the way the elves have a god who also does magic things}" followed closely by "There are no Human gods, humans just worship THE gods who are the most important to everyone"


That drove me up the wall. So, I did some wiki diving, found what deities I could for the various races (For all that FR has sooo much information, I never seem to be able to find the kind of information I want on these Wikis for the various deities) and have been cobbling together different faiths for each race ever since. I also got rid of all gods and goddesses of nature and magic, to make room for Primal Spirits and make magic more fundamental to the universe.

I agree with everything you say here....I'm just too lazy to build a new pantheon for my campaign this time around, so I'm still using the FR pantheon from the SCAG. I feel bad about it...but not enough to create a new set of gods. :p
 

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