D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

[prosfilaes]

Do you expect me to believe that you think every NPC is detailed in a setting? Or that you think that there would be no high level NPCs among those not detailed?

That's a non-sequitur. I don't care about the NPCs who aren't mentioned in the source material. They may exist in your version of the setting, but they don't exist in mine, and probably won't exist in the minds of my players. Elminster wouldn't be as much of a problem if he wasn't one of the first things people thought of when they heard "Forgotten Realms".

Par Salian was 20th level white robes. Other NPCs held similar eminence.

No, he was 18th level (DLA pg 110.) And it says "At this point in his life, Par-Salian would like very much to give up the burden of heading the Conclave ... Under no circumstances will Par-Salian leave the Tower of Wayreth." Elistan, an 18th level Cleric says "He now wants only to die in peace."

Nor is it true about FR where PCs can reach 35th or higher level and surpass Elminster who doesn't gain levels.

Yes, because many, many games have run to the point where the PCs are 35th level.

 

[Caliban]

Yes. Storm King's Thunder is assumed to take place after those other APs (especially Tyranny of Dragons), and includes some references to all 3, thorough not to the extent that you can't easily tweak them away if you're choosing to set it before the others instead.

All right, well ignore that part of my post then.

 

[Hussar]

Well, some people actually like bog standard, stock D&D campaigns!

I know that I do.

But, I don't need to use Forgotten Realms to do that, now do I?

 

[Caliban]

I know that I do.

But, I don't need to use Forgotten Realms to do that, now do I?

Who is saying you do? (Other than possibly WOTC, because they sell FR adventures and supplements.)

 

[Hussar]

For me, and perhaps a few others, it is the "Use what you have" that starts some weirdness.

I don't have almost anything.

Like, I know the Zhentarim are evil bad guys and spies... but beyond that I know nothing. I could use them in a game, it's a cool name and I'm bad at names anyways.

And let's say I look up a map and decide to play a game in some random city, I literally just pulled up a map and zoomed in. Looks like Westgate. So, either I can just use the name and nothing else... which is fine I guess, but really at that point why am I using the realms? The idea isn't to only troll for names. I could just use a random name generator for that.

So I look up Westgate, and it's near the Dragonmere so I should probably look that up. Looks like the Dragonmere is connected to something called the Dragonfall, that's cool. Creator Races, what the heck is that, is that important to my game? I don't know, better do some reading just to make sure.

Looks like this map has something called the Ruins of Starmantle a little to the south. Ruins are great adventuring spots. What are the odds there is a lot of backstory involved in those ruins? That I'm going end up reading, and figuring out what to do with because it is what? Less than a three day walk from Westgate. And there is this place called Cormyr to the North. Big name, I even vaguely recognize it as one of the major kingdoms. Better learn something about it since it is right there across the way from where I'm starting.

By the way, I didn't bother looking up anything after the Dragonmere, but I am fairly certain that I could have followed wiki links for hours just from this tiny subsection of a map I looked up. And I zoomed in as close as I could and there are dozens of more place names and therefore stories within less than a weeks travel of this place I just randomly picked.


So, having absolutely no materials as a start (though I will admit some knowledge of the realms because I've been posting on forums like this for years now) I have to start looking things up if I want to do more than steal the names from the places. And once you start looking things up, everything begins to cross-reference and you don't know when to stop, because while this war may sound unimportant, it could end up having changed something massive or some place nearby could have been a big battle site, and then you're down the rabbit hole again looking things up so that you know what this place is that your players are going to.

/snip

This. 100% this. This is precisely what I'm talking about. And, if as others say, I can just ignore it, then WHY BOTHER? What reason do I have to use this map and not one of a thousand others out there that are just as high quality? And, if I DO use this map, isn't there some expectations on the part of the players that I will actually use FR material? That's a fairly reasonable expectation no?

I keep going around in circles.

Me: I have zero interest in learning the mountain of material for FR, so, I don't use FR.
Reply: You don't have to use that material, just pick and choose what you like.
Me: But, in order to pick and choose, I still have to learn the material in order to find out what material I like.
Reply: But, you don't have to use all the material.
Me:

 

[Hussar]

/snip

I don't know Zeitgeist, but that's simply not true about Dragonlance. Par Salian was 20th level white robes. Other NPCs held similar eminence. Nor is it true about FR where PCs can reach 35th or higher level and surpass Elminster who doesn't gain levels.

You can read it however you like I really don't care if they like it or not.

Depending on what era Dragonlance you're talking about. In pre-3e, no character (other than Raistlin) was higher than 18th and that was strictly enforced in the rules. I don't know what happened in 3e era DL, so, I cannot comment. But, note, the other two heads of the wizard's order were lower level than Par-Salian and virtually no NPC other than a very, very few were in double digit levels.

DL is a VERY low power setting.

Greyhawk, at least prior to 3e, was also limited to about 10th level or so for the vast majority of NPC's. Most kings and whatnot were in that range. There were only a very small handful of NPC's in the higher double digit levels.

I mean, even the Council of 8 wizards were only around 20th level. Modenkainen and that bunch. You don't get epic level characters in Greyhawk for the most part.

 

[Hussar]

Who is saying you do? (Other than possibly WOTC, because they sell FR adventures and supplements.)

ARRGGHGGHGHGHH!!!!

Then why is everyone arguing with me?

Q: Why don't you like Forgotten Realms?
A: Because I am not interested in the mountain of material for the setting.

Why is that not just the end of the freaking conversation?

 

[cbwjm]

This. 100% this. This is precisely what I'm talking about. And, if as others say, I can just ignore it, then WHY BOTHER? What reason do I have to use this map and not one of a thousand others out there that are just as high quality? And, if I DO use this map, isn't there some expectations on the part of the players that I will actually use FR material? That's a fairly reasonable expectation no?

I keep going around in circles.

Me: I have zero interest in learning the mountain of material for FR, so, I don't use FR.
Reply: You don't have to use that material, just pick and choose what you like.
Me: But, in order to pick and choose, I still have to learn the material in order to find out what material I like.
Reply: But, you don't have to use all the material.
Me:

I think it is about scale. You could read through one of the base campaign setting sourcebooks/box sets. You don't need to read through all of the supplements, that's what people are saying. An FR campaign won't be hurt if you only read through SCAG, for example, and even then you could probably skim through some chapters and it would all work out just fine.

If you use the map but don't want to use any of the FR lore then you tell your players that from the get go. I can honestly say that I would have no expectations if I was in your game and you told that you were just using the map as a basis for your homebrew game. It really is as simple as telling your players that. In that game, I wouldn't be surprised that there were no masked lords of waterdeep or even that Waterdeep was a fantasy version of Venice. Candlekeep could be known for its candles in your game, all good, I'd have no expectations at all.

And you don't have to keep going around in circles, you seem to be arguing far to hard about not wanting to use FR when you could just go "Well, I don't want to use FR, it does nothing for me." and then call it a day. I've already said it before, no one is requiring you to use it, I'd say that you should play something you want to play but presumably, you already are.

 

[Caliban]

ARRGGHGGHGHGHH!!!!

Then why is everyone arguing with me?

Q: Why don't you like Forgotten Realms?
A: Because I am not interested in the mountain of material for the setting.

Why is that not just the end of the freaking conversation?

Because that's not at all what you've been saying. To borrow your schtick:

Hussar: "Why do I need to use the Forgotten Realms, there's way to much stuff!"

Reply: "Use only as much as you want to use."

Hussar: "That's way to difficult for me to do!"

Reply: "Then don't use any of it."

Hussar: "Why do I have to use the Forgotten Realms, what does it offer me that others settings don't?"

Reply: "You don't have to. It's just a setting, use something else if you don't like it."

Hussar: "But...why do I have to use the Forgotten Realms if I don't care about it and other settings are just as good?"

Reply: "...Did you hit your head?"

 

[Zardnaar]

ARRGGHGGHGHGHH!!!!

Then why is everyone arguing with me?

Q: Why don't you like Forgotten Realms?
A: Because I am not interested in the mountain of material for the setting.

Why is that not just the end of the freaking conversation?

You're still posting I don't like Dragonlance or Ravenloft I don't go to those threads and keep stating why I don't like them.