D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

[MackMcMacky]

I think the number of people who would not buy FR because Elminster is introducing the setting is minimal. You can't please everyone and they can buy something else.

That's obvious. Your response indicates to me that you aren't getting it because I never made the claim you are refuting.

Here's a simple truth: If I don't like enough of something in a book I don't buy the book. If a book is laced with stuff I don't like and will have to ignore in order to use then the stuff I will use better be darn worth it. If the book then introduces itself with the stuff I don't like it is highlighting to me reasons to have second thoughts about purchasing it.

And if I already have a negative feeling about something an introduction by Mary Sue Elminster could cause me to not even look further into the book.

 

[SkidAce]

It is still a standing question - what does Forgotten Realms offer me other than the mountain of material?

That's about it.

That's its blessing and curse.

 

[MackMcMacky]

Yes, he did kill a bear when he was three. It was written, so in that fiction it happened. As for the other NPCs not adventuring, I prefer to play in a rational world, not one where people just pop in at 16th or 27th level. They all adventured and gained experience though another similar method, or they would be first level.

If you have the perception that high level NPCs like Elminster diminish your PCs, then that applies across the board or you are engaging in hypocritical behavior. All high level NPCs should be doing that to you, no matter how many or few are in your edition. Now, if it's just that you don't like Elminster for whatever OTHER reason such as you don't care for Chosen of Mystra, then that's fine. Just remove him and the other chosen since they are offending you.

Or choose another campaign setting. That is a perfectly valid option.

 

[Shasarak]

You know, I can kind of see it.

It's easier if you decouple exp from fighting, so that the soldiers aren't gaining a couple hundred xp every battle, but even then it comes to a simple point.

Once a person got powerful enough to be a significant threat to the opposing side, a lot more resources were used to drop that one person.

Also, in a more cinematic world, it is possible for a fight to be a draw and both people die, so the ones who made it out the other side were just the ones good enough to get there and lucky enough to last until the war was over.

But, that's just personal head canon for something I don't know anything about.

I dont know, for me it just makes no logical sense for a DnD setting, just doing it for meta reasons to solve problems I never had.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

That was probably the most unbelievable aspect of Eberron. Somehow there was this "hundred" year war that resulted in a couple of level 10 NPCs.

Uh huh, right

You know, I can kind of see it.

It's easier if you decouple exp from fighting, so that the soldiers aren't gaining a couple hundred xp every battle, but even then it comes to a simple point.

Once a person got powerful enough to be a significant threat to the opposing side, a lot more resources were used to drop that one person.

Also, in a more cinematic world, it is possible for a fight to be a draw and both people die, so the ones who made it out the other side were just the ones good enough to get there and lucky enough to last until the war was over.

But, that's just personal head canon for something I don't know anything about.

Its a little more basic than that.
One of the main tenets of the setting is that the PCs are special: their ability to advance to high levels is unusual.
Most soldiers in the war probably started as 1st level commoner or warriors, and those that survived might be 2nd or 3rd level warriors. Elites and special forces might be 3rd or 4th level PC classes.

The majority of high-end Eberron NPCs aren't adventurers: Oalian is well over a thousand years old and yet never hit epic levels. Jaela Daran is not actually a 17th level cleric: she just has the abilities of one whilst within the domain of the divine force she channels. Likewise the twins in Aerenal: they have a different deity directly backing them.

There are some mid-level NPCs around that did earn their levels the hard way, but they still aren't required to follow the same levelling guidelines as PCs have.

One of the weird things with the level system is that it is both a measure of experience and of power for the players, but for a lot of NPCs it is almost strictly a measure of power. That's something I found fascinating when someone mentioned a character who was level 3, unless she was in her temple, then she was level 20.

Her experience didn't change, but her relative power did. So having a level X person just show up can work, if there is a reason they should have such power.

And frankly, I want to steal that "different levels in different places" idea. Just not sure what to do with it yet.

Its even clearer in 5e, where NPCs don't even need to have levels. Just assign capabilities as appropriate. It works best with divine examples like Jaela and the Aerenal Undying, but you could imagine a king who has access to powers of foresight and charisma whilst seated on their rightful throne, or a warlock whose powers wax and wane with the fortunes of their patron for example.

"In comparison" is not relevant. Either high level NPCs make your PCs feel inadequate or not special, or they don't. Picking and choosing which high level NPCs do that to you and which don't is disingenuous.

"In comparison" is entirely relevant to Aldarc's point, which was spelled out for you in the very post you quoted. The high-end NPCs listed can't go out and solve the problems instead of the PCs: If they are even aware that there is a problem, they might be trying to hire the PCs to solve it.
Given its Eberron, they might even be working against the PCs instead.

So no: they aren't going to overshadow the PCs simply by virtue of being high-CR creatures living in the same setting. Compare, as was suggested to you, to Forgotten Realms where there are several high-CR beings known to actively solve problems by doing essentially what the PCs can do, only better.

 

[Asatru009]

I don't care about D&D novels, computer games, comics or things like that. Although I have played a few D&D PC games from the 90s, I have never been interested in the lore and fluff. I only really care about source books for official settings as well as the generic books if they contain lots of game mechanics. If they released Planescape, Birthright and other setting books updated using 5th edition rules that would be great. I think getting away from the Realms and not having intros starting in the Realms would be a good thing as well.

 

[Shasarak]

Its a little more basic than that.
One of the main tenets of the setting is that the PCs are special: their ability to advance to high levels is unusual.
Most soldiers in the war probably started as 1st level commoner or warriors, and those that survived might be 2nd or 3rd level warriors. Elites and special forces might be 3rd or 4th level PC classes.

Never really understood the NPCs have different rules from PCs logic but I know the current designers follow that school of thought. Maybe I prefer the idea of getting to be Arch Druid over the body of the previous Arch Druid rather then the alternative that everyone else is too thick to understand.

 

[Caliban]

"In comparison" is entirely relevant to Aldarc's point, which was spelled out for you in the very post you quoted. The high-end NPCs listed can't go out and solve the problems instead of the PCs: If they are even aware that there is a problem, they might be trying to hire the PCs to solve it.
Given its Eberron, they might even be working against the PCs instead.

So no: they aren't going to overshadow the PCs simply by virtue of being high-CR creatures living in the same setting. Compare, as was suggested to you, to Forgotten Realms where there are several high-CR beings known to actively solve problems by doing essentially what the PCs can do, only better.

Eberron tried a lot of new things. Assuming that PC's are special snowflakes and no one else in the world can gain class levels easily except the PC's was one of them.

And if you like that concept, great. Go play Eberron. Or import the concept into your campaign and say that Elminster is normally a 5th level wizard, but while he's the Chosen of Mystara he's an Archmage who gives out random quests and sleeps with goddesses.

But I think faulting the Forgotten Realms for not using a a concept only a single, brand new (at the time), setting uses isn't really fair. It's not like Dragon Lance didn't have a God wandering around helping out the characters in the stories, have a PC become a God. Or Greyhawk doesn't have a dozen or sight high to epic level characters wandering around, some of whom also became Gods.

Because most settings seem to assume that everyone can gain experience and levels and PC's aren't special in that regard. PC's just do it faster than everyone else because they are being controlled by extraplanar intelligences that don't allow them to take breaks or settle down to a quiet life. Everyone else takes months or years longer, but they have a head start.

High Level NPC's are just one of those things you don't examine too closely, like the D&D fantasy economy. Gold and magic items just appear because PC's are killing stuff. High Level NPC's appear because the PC's are either ready to deal with them, or need to be reminded not to run roughshod over all the common NPC's. Some of them have backstories, some don't.

But I don't see how they would make the PC's feel less useful. We have stories about legendary athletes - does this discourage talented new athletes from trying out for the big leagues? And the PC's have a real chance of surpassing any of the legendary NPC's if the game lasts long enough. Or they may just remain as stories, and the PC's never meet them.

The problem is when the DM insists on having them show up for low level PC's. For any reason - being their special friend, putting them in their place, or even just giving them quests. It's using a sledgehammer to swat a fly. Massive overkill and causes a big mess.

 

[KahlessNestor]

The reason that NPCs come out of the Last War in Eberron at only around 10th level is that the war wasn't actively being fought continually. Like the real Hundred Years War, there were different ohases of conflict, quiet, and changing alliances, i doubt even an elf or a dwarf would have served the entire Last War, and other races couldn't. And like most war, it's mostly sitting on your arse, waiting, or dying of disease, interspersed with quick moments of violence, and usually in massed formations. I would imagine. I don't know if that's really conducive to "gaining experience".

Sent from my SM-G900P using EN World mobile app

 

[prosfilaes]

Never really understood the NPCs have different rules from PCs logic but I know the current designers follow that school of thought. Maybe I prefer the idea of getting to be Arch Druid over the body of the previous Arch Druid rather then the alternative that everyone else is too thick to understand.

The idea that you can get more powerful just by killing a bunch of things makes sense from a gaming perspective for the PCs, but not necessarily from the world perspective. Why should a cleric get better spells because they beat up some orcs? How does a mage learn the mysteries of the universe in a field doing the same fireball over and over? Or at the very least, why does it make a difference whether the fireball is cast at orcs or an empty field?

From a different perspective, demanding the old priest that can raise from the dead or the ancient archmage have adventured, PC-style, seems limiting on NPC concept.