D&D 5E Why I Am Starting to Prefer 4d6 Drop the Lowest Over the Default Array.

[KahlessNestor]

For the same reason that all character races in the RAW may not be available in the game world, or published equipment may not exist. As I said, if someone is adamant about it, it'll go up to a vote. Never had that issue, though, in either direction - when using arrays, no one said "but I want to roll" nor vice versa. Never used point buy, hence not mentioned.


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World building is completely under the purview of the DM, granted, but stat generation isn't world building. If the PHB is stating you may use random or array, or, at DM discretion point buy, that doesn't seem to be any more up to the DM than a character's spell selection is.

Unless there is a meta concern (like in open play to prevent cheating), or DM custom generation, and if it's acknowledged that all options provided are roughly equal, then I'm not sure why it is the purvuew of the DM, against what RAW says.

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[Oofta]

How do you know you'll be playing said character for hundreds of hours, unless you're in a no-PC-death campaign? For all you know you might not be playing it for hundreds of minutes, never mind hours, before it dies the death and you have to start char-gen all over again.

I always assume my character is going to survive. Why would I write up a character that I assume is going to die?

When I DM, I don't care if you want to do minor tweaks to your character or retire/replace if they aren't working. I've just never wanted to retire a character before the end of the campaign, nor have I written up suicidal characters.

I don't plan for my characters to die unless they have elven blood. Then they're cursed and will die before they get past third level. One day, Bink the Elf, by Grabthar's Hammer you will survive to see double digits!

* Random rollers are (usually) more flexible with their character concepts (or in my own case, just don't take it all that seriously and are in to entertain rather than win)
* Random rollers (usually) accept that just like in real life some people are simply better than others in lots of ways - we're not all equal-but-different
* Random rollers (usually) realize that not all characters will have the same likelihood of winning the Most Valuable Character award, though everyone has a chance
* Random rollers (usually) realize that D&D is to large extent a game of luck both in initial char-gen and in what happens afterwards, and that good luck in the field means far far more in the long run than bad luck during char-gen.

Lan-"it's not a good game unless I've used every die in the bag"-efan

So more "if you were a better person you would prefer random rolling because it's what I prefer."

Why is it that stating that I want to play a character that is slightly better than the average commoner, able to contribute to the team on roughly the same level in my chosen role as the other players such an issue?

These threads all seem to come back to the same idea that stating that I want to have decent stats is like saying that all kittens should be tied to live hand grenades and then thrown into the air to watch them explode. I don't get it.

 

[ccs]

I don't plan for my characters to die unless they have elven blood. Then they're cursed and will die before they get past third level. One day, Bink the Elf, by Grabthar's Hammer you will survive to see double digits!

Huh, I have that same problem when I roll up a cleric.

 

[SkidAce]

I tend to use the 4d6 assign anywhere. You get 1 roll. If you don't like it, then you can use the standard array. It gives a nice floor of competance while also giving you a negative. But then I have been DMing newbies. I lije the idea of running with what you roll.

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Been doing this for quite a while now.

 

[ccs]

Just wondering why you think the DM "has to" determine which method, and why everyone has to hse the same method? If all the methods mentioned are roughly equivalent, and, as some one mentioned, the PHB RAW actually makes it the PLAYER'S choice, why do you think DM whim applies? Unless, of course, the DM is using some custom method of their own?

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Because DM > rules. Always has been, always will be.

 

[KahlessNestor]

But if 4d6 drop 1 = standard array mechanically, then why should it matter what the DM likes? They're the same, and the PHB gives the decision to the player (just like spell selection). How come "player agency" doesn’t apply? But then I have never really bought into DM>rules. Everyone should be using the same rules.

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[Soul Stigma]

But if 4d6 drop 1 = standard array mechanically, then why should it matter what the DM likes? They're the same, and the PHB gives the decision to the player (just like spell selection). How come "player agency" doesn’t apply? But then I have never really bought into DM>rules. Everyone should be using the same rules.

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Table rules exist throughout the land (and maybe seas - very possible people play D&D and other RPGs on ships). What you buy into is cool for you, but you'll have to accept that tables, games and campaigns differ. Arrays and modules for "official" play, dice and home brew for play at my table. If you don't like that, that's fine.


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[TheCosmicKid]

* Random rollers (usually) accept that just like in real life some people are simply better than others in lots of ways - we're not all equal-but-different

In real life, you don't get to choose your race, sex, background, or class, but random rollers (usually) still allow this. You also don't get to rearrange your abilities so you can decide what you excel at, but random rollers (usually) allow this too. The conventional randomly-rolled character creation system is not realistic and is not intended to be. It is still, like the standard array and point buy, aimed at allowing players to produce characters of their choice. It simply introduces more variance and allows for some surprises. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing for every player or every group. I myself like surprises, and prefer a normalized random method. But I am urging you to reconsider the validity of this "realism" line of thinking. Unless you yourself do 3d6 in order, roll for race, sex, etc., which is completely fine in its own right, but means you're no longer speaking for what random rollers (usually) do.

Furthermore, if we are to think about realism, let's entertain the idea that a group of adventurers might realistically be closer to equal-but-different than you assert. Adventurers are not a random sample of the population. They're a self-selected elite in an extremely demanding line of work. In terms of abilities, they're probably comparable to a special forces unit or a professional sports team. Yeah, sports teams have some second- and third-stringers, but even those guys are hardly what you'd call "average".

* Random rollers (usually) realize that D&D is to large extent a game of luck both in initial char-gen and in what happens afterwards, and that good luck in the field means far far more in the long run than bad luck during char-gen.

Good luck during char-gen mathematically matters more in the long run, and increasingly so the longer the long run goes. If Alice rolls an 18 Strength and Bob rolls a 14 Strength, the odds that Bob is going to roll 2 points higher than Alice on every significant Strength attack and check and save and damage roll are small and ever-diminishing as they keep having to make these rolls.

But let's take a step back. Why is it a fact that "D&D is to a large extent a game of luck... in initial char-gen" which players ought to "realize"? As has been discussed, even the default character generation rules quite readily allow for a character to be created with no random elements at all. And if they didn't, it would still be the work of moments to homebrew variants that work this way, and the game would still be D&D. It seems here more like you're asserting what you personally want D&D to be rather than what D&D is, and that you ought to realize that D&D is bigger and broader and more open to diverse playstyles than you give it credit for.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

But if 4d6 drop 1 = standard array mechanically...

False premise. Standard array is worse than 4d6 drop lowest, on average. Somewhere around the 40th percentile I think. I think that was rather brilliant on WotC's part, in a way--it makes players who roll for stats feel pretty good about their rolls, because they're usually better than what they think is the average.

It also tends to create accusations of "cheating" on the part of those who don't know the math (see this thread for examples) and just see the results, but eh, what can you do?

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

In real life, you don't get to choose your race, sex, background, or class *snip*

Isn't this a controversial statement nowadays? At least on the Internet.

If class = profession, you've always been able to choose that.

Furthermore, if we are to think about realism, let's entertain the idea that a group of adventurers might realistically be closer to equal-but-different than you assert. Adventurers are not a random sample of the population. They're a self-selected elite in an extremely demanding line of work. In terms of abilities, they're probably comparable to a special forces unit or a professional sports team. Yeah, sports teams have some second- and third-stringers, but even those guys are hardly what you'd call "average".

A stat array that includes a 14 is hardly "average" for a human (e.g. 14, 12, 10, 10, 11, 9), despite the complaints of certain players (some on this thread) who look enviously on even-higher rolls. It's quite rare for 4d6 drop lowest to produce an array which is below the MM human average (e.g. Cultist), and even in those cases, the PCs in question rapidly gain ability far beyond the human average. By the time you're 5th level, you're far superior to a Cultist or a Guard--you have a place on that professional sports team now.

But let's take a step back. Why is it a fact that "D&D is to a large extent a game of luck... in initial char-gen" which players ought to "realize"? As has been discussed, even the default character generation rules quite readily allow for a character to be created with no random elements at all. And if they didn't, it would still be the work of moments to homebrew variants that work this way, and the game would still be D&D. It seems here more like you're asserting what you personally want D&D to be rather than what D&D is, and that you ought to realize that D&D is bigger and broader and more open to diverse playstyles than you give it credit for.

Because some other player might decide to roll stats, and if you don't realize that D&D is about luck, then judging by this thread and by other comments from point-buy advocates and stat-rollers, his rolls may ruin your fun. You yourself just mentioned a hypothetical Alice vs. Bob situation which is all about envy, "If Alice rolls an 18 Strength and Bob rolls a 14 Strength, the odds that Bob is going to roll 2 points higher than Alice on every significant Strength attack and check and save and damage roll are small and ever-diminishing as they keep having to make these rolls." If Bob got a Strength of 14 using standard array, does the issue go away? No, Alice still has that differential, and to some people, that's a huge problem. People who can't accept stat variations are never happy with letting people use the default character generation rules (roll or standard array, your choice). They seem to always feel the need to force everyone into the same normalized bucket.

Now, if everyone at the table wants normalization, then no forcing is necessary and you can just use the default rules, or point buy, and it will turn out okay.

But it sure helps if you have the attitude Lanefan suggests, because then you won't get upset if some other players at the table chooses to roll the dice like the PHB says he or she can.