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D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

I know it is doesn't cover 5e (I wasn't sure if it moved much into 4e) but what it does do is provide an official history of the realms showing what did and didn't happen during the time frame it covers. It should help people determine whether or not an adventure from 2e or novel from 3e was considered canon. Mind you, I don't know how much detail it goes into so I wouldn't be surprised if some things are still up in the air. Personally, I just assumed that everything that written in a novel was canon as were adventures great and small.
Taking a look at it, and trying to jog my memories of novels and adventures read a decade or two ago, it appears to cover at least most of the novels, but also looks to leave out the adventures/modules (except for those cases where a module was novelized, of course).

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It's a good theory, but it's just not backed up by the rules. The Deck of Many Things and the Librams that give levels for that matter, are written exceptions to the rule. Gods have been written and they have not been given the ability to grant exp. Nor can demon lords. Now, it would certainly make sense for them to be able to do it, but you have to engage a house rule since you are altering the rules involving mechanics.
Are you, though?

Do the rules - in any D&D edition, come to think of it - specifically say anywhere that gods and their equivalents cannot give (or remove!) xp and-or levels? I get it that the rules do not specifically say they can, but if the rules also do not say they cannot (as in, they don't mention the topic at all) then you're into rulings-not-rules territory where anything's fair game...and rather than altering an existing rule, you're in effect making a new one for your own game.

Also: in 5e can wishes, be they from the spell or a genie in a bottle, grant (or remove) levels or xp? If yes, then deities (who in theory trump everything) should be able to.

Lan-"if wishes were horses, I'd have fallen off long ago"-efan
 

You need to burn the straw, not turn it into a man.

Well, let's trace the argument shall we?

Critic: I don't like FR because I feel that the number of high and very high level NPC's in the setting overshadow the PC's. It feels like all the important stuff in the setting gets done by NPC's and the PC's are just sort of there.

Maxperson: Other settings are like this. There's high level NPC's in every setting.

Critic: That's not really true though. Sure, that might be true in some settings. Planescape, for example, features demons and angels walking down the street. It can be a problem for some players when you're a first level PC walking into a bar and there's a freaking Solar sitting next to you having a beer. On the other hand, there are a number of settings where this isn't really true. Dragonlance is very low powered, particularly in the pre-3e incarnation where your high powered NPC's really can't intervene - Par Salian is a very old man who never leaves the Tower of High Sorcery. Dalamar is restricted to his tower. The setting doesn't have any high level clerics or druids (again, pre-3e) and pretty much all the other high level NPC's are bad guys. Ravenloft is another setting where you don't have gobs of high level NPC's wandering around. Greyhawk also doesn't really.

Maxperson: But, only a bad DM would let these powerful NPC's overshadow the players.

Critic: ... I find it rather implausible that you have so many high powered NPC's in the setting that no one ever gets involved. Waterdeep has a population of (depending on which book you read) somewhere between 150k and 2 million. By 3e standards, you have dozens of high double digit NPC's just in that city alone, of every class. Baldur's Gate, according to canon, has about 150k people in it. Again, if we're using 3e demographics, we're talking half a dozen 18th or higher level NPC's of every class. And that's just two cities. There are many cities of similar size in FR. I find it unbelievable that no one ever gets involved when the PC's are dealing with RSE's.

Maxperson: None of that is canon according to me.

Critic: Umm... well... uh...

That's about the long and the short of it, isn't it?
 

Just a point about XP. Which edition are we talking about?

In 2e, clerics casting spells got 50 xp/spell level for casting. Wizards got 100 xp/spell level. It was entirely possible for wizards to zoom up levels without leaving their house. IIRC, it took about 6 months for a wizard to hit about 7th level, presuming he blew his load of spells every day.

That's entirely by the book by the way.
 

No. It's exactly what I wrote. I'm curious to see it. If I wanted someone to go get it for me, I'd have said so.

Sorry, I read more into what you were saying than you meant, and then later down the thread someone did ask me to find it. I feel like that is karma talking.



It's a good theory, but it's just not backed up by the rules. The Deck of Many Things and the Librams that give levels for that matter, are written exceptions to the rule. Gods have been written and they have not been given the ability to grant exp. Nor can demon lords. Now, it would certainly make sense for them to be able to do it, but you have to engage a house rule since you are altering the rules involving mechanics.

Where are the gods written out in 5e? Tiamat has an avatar, but no one else has been statted have they? And I’m sure plenty of beings had abilities involving XP in old editions. Undead used to have the ability to grant negative levels after all. However that worked in the game lore.


That isn't necessarily true. People assume a great deal and lose their minds over piddly crap. To think that lots of fans assumed what was cannon, were wrong, and then lost their minds is not a large step to take. :)

But, the fact that the company felt the need to call it out speaks towards the community that was involved. Sure, they may have assumed with no evidence, but after a long enough time the community making the assumption there is little difference between official canon and assumed canon.

Canon itself is a product of the community that consumes the material after all.



That's just not true. You can of course make it hard on yourself as a DM and play it like that, but you have to ignore the options available to you.

The bigwigs watch and plot against each other, so they could easily miss a world spanning even, or just plain be unable to leave their own. When you get down to the city level it's even easier. Lady Alustiel is making a state visit to Bruenor. The Lords of Waterdeep are busy working out a trade deal with another major city. The Simbul is planewalking like the lore says she enjoys. High level NPC is assassinated, opening up the ability to rule the city to the PCs.

You really are making things about 1000x harder than it needs to be.

I have options sure, but how many times can I use each excuse? If I have players who care about such things the fact that everyone else is conveniently busy when the plot arrives will begin to wear thin.

I know as a player I started getting frustrated with the Guard of Waterdeep in the mercenary game I was playing in. Time and time again we would have an issue, something would be threatening someone or something mysterious would be going on or someone would be missing, and we’d hear “And the guards won’t do anything about it so I turned to you”.

And sure, that was the story, we were mercs, and having the guards fixing all the problems would make us unnecessary, but seriously, why does this major city have the most useless and lazy guards ever? Like, this New York essentially, and we never encountered the police doing anything about serious threats to the city. Cult in the sewers? Meh. Giants destroying farms? Meh. Major Demon summoned and ravishing the countryside? Meh. Rash of mysterious deaths? Meh. We never even got the guard coming to us admitting they couldn’t handle the problem, it was always just that they didn’t care enough to get involved or send anyone to look into it. It let us be the heroes but it made my character who was a former army officer insane, because all I wanted to do was go and beat them into shape so they actually protected the city.

This same type of storytelling tool is used all the time, and it isn’t a bad one, I get that. But, if used too much or improperly it starts stretching my believability and I am certain my limit for such things is average, some people can’t stand it even less than I can, and for them it just will not fly.


If he's using minions until the party is high enough level to handle him, he's not overshadowing now, is he? The same goes for Elminster and the Realms NPCs.

You are the one who keeps insisting Raistlin is the exact same as Elminster. That competing against the PCs is therefore the exact same as helping them.

Having Raistlin show up and fight the PCs enough times for him to overshadow them would be like playing one of those JRPGs where you have the fight you are scripted to lose, only instead of happening just once to show how powerful the villain was it happens at the end of every single dungeon. Very few people would be ridiculous enough to do that. However, it is much less ridiculous to have a powerful ally show up to help at the start of every dungeon. And, it takes a lot fewer times for that to happen at the table for people to get fed up with it.

It is a matter of degree, a matter of nuance, I won’t deny that. Heck, it’s a matter of table preferences and player tolerances too. But if it was never an issue, no one would say it is an issue. If no one thought Driz’zt being a heroic drow and people playing Driz’zt clones was a problem, no one would say it is a problem.

The same applies to the PCs and the Realms. The DM is the one who wrecks that or not.

But, those high level NPCs are actually everywhere. I’m sure a list of all the high level NPCs officially in FR would be far higher than the list of superheroes in the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

It’s a lot easier to juggle one or two individuals than it is ten or twenty.

No one may be talking about “Ulder Ravengard, Grand Duke of Baldur's Gate and Marshal of the Flaming Fist” but that doesn’t mean he or she doesn’t cause issues for some parties because she needs to be at Trade Negotiations any time something needs to happen in Baldur’s Gate. And actually, even if she is, aren’t the Flaming Fist a pretty tough bunch? Why aren’t they helping clear the cemetery of the Undead scourge that is threatening the people? Or tracking down the vampire killings next month? Or dealing with the Werewolf reports that begin cropping up three months later? Or the Orc raids? Or the Zhent crime spree? How many threats can you craft plausible scenarios for? Most tables deal with dangerous threats every session, leading to multiple threats a week in some instances and we are supposed to believe the “tough and ready” guard force is absent or unable to deal with any of them? Oh, and lets not forget the Temples who also stand by and do nothing, despite the fact that a famous paladin makes his home there, or a former adventuring cleric. And the powerful sage wizard whose tower is in the center of the city. Or the well-known adventurers like Minsc who tend to make Baldur’s Gate a stopping point between their exploits. Or any of the former adventurers turned inn keepers or shop keeps or blacksmiths.

A lot of people who are too busy to do anything about the problem, every single time.

But I just need to think of all my options… every single time.
 

No one may be talking about “Ulder Ravengard, Grand Duke of Baldur's Gate and Marshal of the Flaming Fist” but that doesn’t mean he or she doesn’t cause issues for some parties because she needs to be at Trade Negotiations any time something needs to happen in Baldur’s Gate. And actually, even if she is, aren’t the Flaming Fist a pretty tough bunch?

As canon is a highly contentious subject within this thread, I am compelled to point out that Ulder Ravengard, Grand Duke of beautiful Baldur's Gate, Marshal of the glorious Flaming Fist and successor to the late honourable Duke Abdel Adrian, is indeed a big black dude.

However I will concede, I am unaware of the Duke's preferred personal pronoun when describing same. So don't mind me, carry on regardless.
 
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Heh. That would be this dude right?

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Although, to be fair, I'm not really sure if that's canon or not since it doesn't bear the FR Fans Forever Seal of Approval.
 

My response to High Level NPC in FR. Hmm Tom Cruise, and Beyoncé are high level Bards in the real world. Guess who is not going to help you with your high school production of Grease? Or that evil gang of country and western rappers who are shaking down your friends for their lunch money.
Now where was it every said the novels were canon? Especially for 5 E. Give me a statement, link, a quote from a designer of 5E, an Amazon gift card, etc supporting the idea that a dm MUST follow the novels. The only source books I know for 5E are DMG, PHB, MM, Sword Coast, Volo’s yo-yos Monsters, and the various adventure path hard backs.

I am having Knights of the Dinner Table flashbacks on this thread where Brian is griping the hackmaster novels may no sense game sense so the writer did not know his hackmaster canon.

“Doesn't matter. FR novels are canon. That's one of the things to love about the FR as a game setting.” Mirtek. Pray tell me where in the 5E books mentioned above that has this wording. Is Ed Greenwood going to show up at my house with his leather black jack of metal dice and discuss the errors of my ways?
What do I consider canon? Only the hardbacks as I dm them. The DMG, sword coast, MM, PHB, and volo’s. Even if I own the modules I don’t consider them canon till I dm them. And after seeing Greenwood wrote “Spellfire” none of the fiction books are canon. The creator of Star Wars can say this is canon but Wookie Christmas isn’t. Too bad unless he sitting at my table while I dming Star Wars the RPG he does not get a vote. His Canon is only a suggestion when I start dming.

Um...you do realize that they launch every edition of D&D with novels or a series of novels that establish the new canon, right? Including 5e. It's called "The Sundering" series, and "The Sundering" is what sets up 5e, just as the Spellplague (also dealt with in novels) launched 4e. And even the latest Drizzt series dealt with Out of the Abyss. It's all canon.
 

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