D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

[Maxperson]

That sounds like a very 3e-based perspective, where the rules acted more like boundaries than they do in either 1e or 5e.

Obviously, and a DM has to make rulings whenever one comes up; and these rulings will of course vary from table to table (though I think we'll all agree that a 5-mile nuclear blast from a sword strike would be ruled against).

Even in 5e the rules provide boundaries. It just encourages DMs to stretch or break those boundaries as necessary. What I'm saying is that by the rules, if the rules of any edition don't say you can do something, you can't unless the DM says you can via a house rule or home brew. That holds true for 5e and 1e, it's just that those editions are friendlier to DM alteration or addition than say 3e or 4e.

But it really is a different perspective. In 1e (and, from what I can tell, in 5e) you may in theory try anything at a character level unless a rule specifically says you cannot. In 3e, however, it was more that you may not try something unless a rule specifies that you can (and if someone did try something outside the box the DM had to find a way to justify it within the rules).

Within reason. You cannot be a 1e Fighter level 1 and and say cast a fireball.

The same applies to what a DM may do. If I as a 1e (or someone as a 5e) DM decide that gods can grant xp, then gods can grant xp. If I decide they can't, they can't. There's nothing official anywhere to back it up either way. Rulings, not rules.

That really applies to every edition. I had no problem house ruling the heck out of 3e. Also 1e had the Deities and Demigods which included what the gods could do via the rules. So there was something official in that edition. 5e is really the only edition I know of where no such rules have yet been released.

OK. I'm used to 1e wishes that really could move mountains.

And difficult terrain, at that!

I still run wishes that way, though they tend to be limited by the power of the granter. A wish spell cast by a wizard isn't going to move mountains. He's not powerful enough. One granted by an Efreet, sure. One granted by a god could move a mountain range.

 

[Lanefan]

Yeah, and that you never use because the DM would just screw you over.

Depends on a) the DM, and b) how tightly one words one's wish.

Shasa - "You moved the Mountain where?" -rak

"Erm...nowhere in particular...but I think that might be your insurance adjuster coming for a chat about your cottage..."

I still run wishes that way, though they tend to be limited by the power of the granter. A wish spell cast by a wizard isn't going to move mountains. He's not powerful enough. One granted by an Efreet, sure. One granted by a god could move a mountain range.

While I'm not in any real agreement with you about rules, I have to say I do rather like this.

Lanefan

 

[Chaosmancer]

They'll be looting tombs and whatnot, not running around being heroes. They will be adventuring, but not in the same way as most PC parties. As a result, they aren't likely to be volunteering to risk death to save a city or the world.

As almost an aside to this discussion, how are there tombs left to loot in the Forgotten Realms?

I understand things like Undermountain are supposed to be too big to fully explore, but we've got hundreds of years of hundreds of people looting tombs. Yet there are always ruins and tombs nearby the major population centers filled with stuff.


And I was talking more about high level clerics and paladins than wizards in my last post. You really believe a high-level paladin got into his power through grave-robbing and isn't going to act as a hero to save the people of his city. Find me a published oath where that makes sense. Same with clerics. "I spent 15 years robbing the dead for gold and glory, now that I am the high priest of Helm I live a cushy life and will not sally forth to protect the town, I'm no hero after all, I'm a grave robber." That doesn't sound like most fantasy holy men who can channel their deities will.


This could simply boil down to my perception of humanity. I'm young and a bit optimistic. I think when taken as a complete whole, people tend to skew good. They are selfish, sure, but in the end more people would choose to do the right thing than the wrong thing.

The number of NPCs, the fact that some of those NPCs really should actually be better people than I am, really lends itself within my worldview that a significant number of them would do things to help if it is within their power to help.

It simply doesn't add up

 

[Shasarak]

As almost an aside to this discussion, how are there tombs left to loot in the Forgotten Realms?

As I understand it, Elminster is responsible for topping them up again after they have been looted ready for the next group.

 

[Maxperson]

As almost an aside to this discussion, how are there tombs left to loot in the Forgotten Realms?

I understand things like Undermountain are supposed to be too big to fully explore, but we've got hundreds of years of hundreds of people looting tombs. Yet there are always ruins and tombs nearby the major population centers filled with stuff.

There are tons of lost civilizations and the world is very large. That and new powerful people are buried every day!

And I was talking more about high level clerics and paladins than wizards in my last post. You really believe a high-level paladin got into his power through grave-robbing and isn't going to act as a hero to save the people of his city. Find me a published oath where that makes sense. Same with clerics. "I spent 15 years robbing the dead for gold and glory, now that I am the high priest of Helm I live a cushy life and will not sally forth to protect the town, I'm no hero after all, I'm a grave robber." That doesn't sound like most fantasy holy men who can channel their deities will.

That might explain why there are almost no high level paladins in the FR. As for clerics, they aren't any more likely than wizards to sacrifice themselves as heroes. When you get down to it, even the good clerics serve their god and his tenets. You might see a cleric of Lathander try to stop an undead horde, but he's not going to bother with a wizard attack. The cleric of Chauntea over there might try to stop a crop blight, but he's not going to both with the pirates invading the city.

This could simply boil down to my perception of humanity. I'm young and a bit optimistic. I think when taken as a complete whole, people tend to skew good. They are selfish, sure, but in the end more people would choose to do the right thing than the wrong thing.

Up until their safety is on the line, then they find other things to do and feel bad about it later. Sure, more people will opt not to steal 5 dollars that is sitting on a table all alone, than those who will steal it, but very few will go into a burning car to save someone. It drops even more dramatically when someone is actively armed and trying to harm/kill people.

 

[billd91]

Yes, I know I can just ignore the changes they made and pretend it never happened, but it's like how I used to totally love mayonnaise when I was younger... until the time I got sick from some bad mayo, and now even just the thought of it makes me nauseous.

Everyone seems to blame the mayo. Truth is, it's more likely the meat or other proteins you're eating with the mayo that are harboring the bacteria. Poor mayonnaise-always so misunderstood.

 

[Demetrios1453]

As I understand it, Elminster is responsible for topping them up again after they have been looted ready for the next group.

That's a new Family Guy-style cutaway I can use when the characters ask "Where's Elminster?"

(Elminster is standing in front of a large cave entrance, waving back a crane - beeping as it backs up of course - that is attempting to move a giant box marked "Fragile: Tarrasque". Suddenly the rope snaps, the box crashes and bursts open, and the creature rushes out, zipping away towards the nearby large, unsuspecting city. Zoom to Elminster, who is shrugging with an Urkel-esqe "Did I do that?" expression. Cue canned laguhter and wah-wah-wah-wah trombone...)

 

[Shasarak]

That's a new Family Guy-style cutaway I can use when the characters ask "Where's Elminster?"

I would have him fighting the Giant Chicken.

 

[Demetrios1453]

I would have him fighting the Giant Chicken.

Yes, but what are the Giant Chicken's stats? (Other than a massive Constitution and regenerative abilities...)

And if the Giant Chicken is a powerful enough NPC to challenge Elminster, should we worry that, as a powerful NPC within the Forgotten Realms, it will inevitably at some point start ruining adventures by acting as a deus ex machina, since even DMs are powerless against the abilities of such NPCs to interfere in their campaigns?

 

[Seramus]

As almost an aside to this discussion, how are there tombs left to loot in the Forgotten Realms?

It's the Forgotten Realms. The entire setting is based upon the idea that there are Realms that have been Forgotten. Especially Netheril, but ooooodles of others. All Forgotten. Entire Realms!