Level 20 Capstone Abilities

Do you think this needs fixing? Is it really interesting when everything is the same, just colors changing? One of the things I miss the most from earlier editions are monsters such as golems, that were practically impervious to magic. Nobody needs to be at full capacity at every given situation. When facing golems, some people could end up feeling it was the "wrong" option to have selected the whole wizard class to begin with, not just a feature inside the class, which favored enemy is for a ranger.
There are two key differences between the wizard and the ranger here.

The first is that the wizard is "on" by default and only turned "off" by these special encounters, whereas favored enemy is "off" by default and only turned "on" by special encounters.

The second is that the wizard is never really "off". He still has the opportunity to do interesting things with magic. The enemy may be immune to spells, but he can still haste the fighter and turn the rogue invisible, then control the battlefield with wall of stone. Whereas when favored enemy is "off", there's nothing interesting the ranger can do with it. Her numbers simply aren't as big. (By the same token, even when favored enemy is "on" it's relatively boring.) So for the wizard, golems are an intellectual challenge, whereas for a ranger, non-favored-enemies are just a bummer.
 

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Hawk Diesel

Adventurer
There are two key differences between the wizard and the ranger here.

The first is that the wizard is "on" by default and only turned "off" by these special encounters, whereas favored enemy is "off" by default and only turned "on" by special encounters.

The second is that the wizard is never really "off". He still has the opportunity to do interesting things with magic. The enemy may be immune to spells, but he can still haste the fighter and turn the rogue invisible, then control the battlefield with wall of stone. Whereas when favored enemy is "off", there's nothing interesting the ranger can do with it. Her numbers simply aren't as big. (By the same token, even when favored enemy is "on" it's relatively boring.) So for the wizard, golems are an intellectual challenge, whereas for a ranger, non-favored-enemies are just a bummer.

Thank you for explaining what I was trying to get at but much more succinctly. ^_^
 

Eddie Blanton

First Post
Here is what my table uses for the Ranger Level 20 Capstone:

Unstoppable Predator (New)
At 20th level, you become an unparalleled hunter. You gain the following benefits:
~ Your proficiency bonus becomes +7.
~ You can cast Hunter’s Mark at will, treated as if cast using a 5th level spell slot requiring no material components.
~ Your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 18, 19 or 20 against your Favored Enemies.
~ As an action, you can cast Freedom of Movement on yourself without expending a spell slot or using any material components. Once you use this feature, you can’t use it again until you finish a short or long rest.


This is designed to work well with the original ranger and the revised ranger.

A Hunter benefits from the proficiency bonus slightly (+1 to hit, skills, and saves), the at will Hunter's Mark (+1d6 per attack, and an extreme ability to track your foe), and the critical hit bonus vs your limited group of Favored Enemies. Freedom of Movement is just fun to have, and really gives the feel of being unstoppable.

A Beastmaster (both original, but more so for the revised) benefits greatly from the proficiency bonus, since the beast scales on that stat. Hunter's Mark damage is meh with one attack, but the tracking ability is still flavorful and cool to have. Freedom of Movement is just as good here as it is for the Hunter.
 

Barolo

First Post
I don't see it as "everything is the same, just colors changing." But magic and spell variety as a limiting factor in the mechanics of a sorcerer or wizard is a separate problem than the mechanical problems of the ranger. One can use existing spells to create new spells with slight adjustments or variations quite easily in order to create greater variety, the easiest of which is to change energy type. No, these are technically "cannon" or "RAW" spells, but it works, and can help a sorcerer or wizard achieve a particular theme while maintaining their mechanical benefits of their chosen class/archetype.

I just disagree that all elements should be equal, and that elemental substitution plays well. For me it undermines the idea of the different elements to begin with.


As for the monsters you miss from earlier editions, there's nothing saying you couldn't bring those back.

There isn't. I just used them as a hook for this topic.

I am not arguing that every class needs to be optimal in every situation. However, there is absolutely no major class ability that limits the use of an ability in the ways that favored enemy does. The only one that, as written, is more reliant on DM fiat is the Wild Sorcerers Tides of Chaos ability. Regardless of what you're fighting or what the situation, 90+% of all class abilities can be at least attempted. Only favored enemy limits the situations in which they can be used. Now mind you, this is not necessarily a bad thing. But it needs to be at best a minor ability that the ranger can do without, and should not be used as the focus for a capstone.

90% of all ranger class abilities can also be attempted most of the time. This is one of the problems discussing favored enemy. It becomes the "only" thing rangers can do, which is far from fair. If it should or should be the focus of the capstone, I don't know. I certainly find it inspiring to have an specialized enemy-hunter, who can, at the apex of their career, fight their favored enemy in a masterful way.

Finally, as to your point regarding how a player chooses their abilities or spells, it is perfectly acceptable to play a character that adapts to the encounters of the game. But what if you start the game at a a level higher than first and invest in abilities to fit your concept? What if you have a vision for how your character/hero develops their powers? What if their powers are not based on their adventuring experience, but rather hidden powers that are already defined but require certain stresses to unlock? There are many ways to play, and none of them are wrong. It is different if you have a fire sorcerer in mind that you want to play, but end up fighting a lot of monsters with fire resistance. There are abilities and feats that can allow you to continue to feel useful (Elemental Adept for starters, which can be used as a basis for another feat that allows one to damage creatures with an element despite normally being immune). These are easier matters to adjust, since a fire sorcerer can still cast spells against any creature or in any encounter so long as they have a spell slot. Additionally, as you mentioned, they can choose to use other spells if they know them. A ranger with favored enemy is in a different category. If this is supposed to be their defining ability around which a capstone is created, the ability must be useful even when not facing their favored enemy. Otherwise, theoretically they could go their entire adventuring career without ever fighting their favored enemy. Such an ability is completely reliant on the DM to play ball and throw the ranger so goblins or orcs or undead.

Of course, this is my perspective and how I view the design of 5e, and how I adapt the game to meet the needs of myself and my group.

I still just boils down to the so called "social contract" on the table. I have seen rangers in game in so many different editions, and most often than not they would get some sort of benefit against some specific group(s) of monsters. There was even a time when the player had no saying at all to what kinds of monsters their benefits would apply. And still, it played out well. I am used to sit on a table where everyone is on agreement to the general theme. It affects every character being built. It affects race and class availability, potential social challenges related to choosing one or other race or class, spell selection, combat styles for the warriors, skill selection as a whole, the favored enemy is just one feature in the list.



There are two key differences between the wizard and the ranger here.

The first is that the wizard is "on" by default and only turned "off" by these special encounters, whereas favored enemy is "off" by default and only turned "on" by special encounters.

The second is that the wizard is never really "off". He still has the opportunity to do interesting things with magic. The enemy may be immune to spells, but he can still haste the fighter and turn the rogue invisible, then control the battlefield with wall of stone. Whereas when favored enemy is "off", there's nothing interesting the ranger can do with it. Her numbers simply aren't as big. (By the same token, even when favored enemy is "on" it's relatively boring.) So for the wizard, golems are an intellectual challenge, whereas for a ranger, non-favored-enemies are just a bummer.

Well, yes, the wizard magic is "on" by default. And it is pretty much what a wizard gets by being a wizard in order to deal with their challenges. And still, their spell selection and strategies will vary and adapt according to the type of adventure or campaign they are into. And then the favored enemy is "off" by default, but in a campaign where players and the DM are on the same boat, it will be "on" more often than not, and even when it is not "on", it is not really the bulk of the ranger capabilities, not by a far margin.

Your second paragraph is really awkward for me. What if I wrote that the ranger still has the opportunity of doing interesting things with their several different class features, including spells, when their favored enemy is "off", but the wizard would have nothing interesting to do with their great repertoire of fire spells when facing fire-imune enemies, or of direct spells when facing golems? Then I could change the conclusion that for the ranger, non-favored enemies are just more challenging as they are not being able to use a one of their many class features, but they are far away from helpless as they have a huge amount of other features to use, while for that fire-enthusiast wizard, fire-imune enemies are a bummer.

I know my last paragraph is a real big stretch, and I am laughing as I write it, but wasn't yours also quite so?
 

Hawk Diesel

Adventurer
Mechanically, the only reason any element is different than another is the number of creatures that are vulnerable, resistant, or immune to a particular energy type. Outside of that, there is no difference, even with force. In terms of more role playing elements or deeper meaning represented by the energy types (fire being passion or life or destruction or whatever) energy types may have different value, but these are subjective elements.

As for the ranger's favored enemy ability, I have no problem with it in concept. However, because it is only useful under specific criteria, the design space for the ability needs to be minimal. Favored enemy is at best a ribbon ability. Unless it applies to everything you fight (why couldn't you apply techniques for fighting giants to fighting other kinds of things?) and you just get higher bonuses when facing favored enemies (a la Divine Smite). In that circumstance I can see Favored Enemy taking up more design space and focus for the ranger.

But to bring this back to being relevant to the thread (you're free to start another thread discussing the ranger), a capstone ability for a class needs to be based on something that is relevant to that class over the entirety of the adventuring career. It cannot be based on something that amounts to a ribbon ability. That would be like making the Wizard's capstone based off the Mage Hand cantrip. Yes, it's technically within the realm of the Wizard, but it's also a minuscule part of what makes the wizard or drives their abilities.

Personally, I think a Ranger capstone might be more appropriate to be based on their conclave/archetype. Hunters, Beast Masters, and Deep Stalkers each get their own capstone, similar to the different Paladin Oaths getting their own capstone.
 

Barolo

First Post
Mechanically, the only reason any element is different than another is the number of creatures that are vulnerable, resistant, or immune to a particular energy type. Outside of that, there is no difference, even with force. In terms of more role playing elements or deeper meaning represented by the energy types (fire being passion or life or destruction or whatever) energy types may have different value, but these are subjective elements.

There is at least one more difference, which is related to saves. This matters more even if evasion-able enemies are involved. I know this difference is not set in stone, but it frequently plays a role. There are also some peculiarities that are usually associated with different elements, such as lightning spells usually having more narrow area, poison carrying the poisoned condition, or acid dealing damage over time. I would like those differences to be more pronounced, and that higher level spells would have something at least mimicking the secondary effects that some cantrips already present. I also think that fire spells dealing more damage but being more frequently resisted has a meaningful in-game effect, for instance, and that this is frequently disregarded when discussing balance between elemental types.

As for the ranger's favored enemy ability, I have no problem with it in concept. However, because it is only useful under specific criteria, the design space for the ability needs to be minimal. Favored enemy is at best a ribbon ability. Unless it applies to everything you fight (why couldn't you apply techniques for fighting giants to fighting other kinds of things?) and you just get higher bonuses when facing favored enemies (a la Divine Smite). In that circumstance I can see Favored Enemy taking up more design space and focus for the ranger.

I would not mind at all the ranger capstone being something else, it could as well not be even related on the combat pillar, as suggested above-thread. On the other hand, being as it is, it would play well in my table, because we would be mindful of letting it be relevant. What I really wanted to point out earlier in the thread is that this kind of bonus, that can be applied after die rolls, is easily undervalued, and the reason for that is that simple DPR calculation or other superficial evaluation is not usually able to account for the opportunity, when these abilities kick in.

But to bring this back to being relevant to the thread (you're free to start another thread discussing the ranger), a capstone ability for a class needs to be based on something that is relevant to that class over the entirety of the adventuring career. It cannot be based on something that amounts to a ribbon ability. That would be like making the Wizard's capstone based off the Mage Hand cantrip. Yes, it's technically within the realm of the Wizard, but it's also a minuscule part of what makes the wizard or drives their abilities.

The wizard is an interesting example. I know a lot of people that consider the wizard capstone ability weak sauce, specially compared to the 18th level ability. In my opinion, it is neither the 18th nor the 20th level features that are the capstone of a wizard, but the 17th level feature. And if I was playing as an illusionist, I would cherish the 14th level feature more than the 18th or 20th, for instance.


Personally, I think a Ranger capstone might be more appropriate to be based on their conclave/archetype. Hunters, Beast Masters, and Deep Stalkers each get their own capstone, similar to the different Paladin Oaths getting their own capstone.

I would go further, and point that druids really needed to have different capstones based on their circles. The way it is, the value of both their 18th and 20th level features is quite different for moon and land druids, as these too features interact so strongly with the defining feature of moon druids.
 

snickersnax

Explorer
As for the ranger's favored enemy ability, I have no problem with it in concept. However, because it is only useful under specific criteria, the design space for the ability needs to be minimal. Favored enemy is at best a ribbon ability. Unless it applies to everything you fight (why couldn't you apply techniques for fighting giants to fighting other kinds of things?) and you just get higher bonuses when facing favored enemies (a la Divine Smite). In that circumstance I can see Favored Enemy taking up more design space and focus for the ranger.

But to bring this back to being relevant to the thread (you're free to start another thread discussing the ranger), a capstone ability for a class needs to be based on something that is relevant to that class over the entirety of the adventuring career. It cannot be based on something that amounts to a ribbon ability. That would be like making the Wizard's capstone based off the Mage Hand cantrip. Yes, it's technically within the realm of the Wizard, but it's also a minuscule part of what makes the wizard or drives their abilities.

Personally, I think a Ranger capstone might be more appropriate to be based on their conclave/archetype. Hunters, Beast Masters, and Deep Stalkers each get their own capstone, similar to the different Paladin Oaths getting their own capstone.

TBH I didn't know what a ribbon ability was before I joined this thread. My understanding is that is a fluff feature. I would argue that Favored Enemy and its upgrade: Greater Favored Enemy are not fluff and instead help to define Rangers, particularly Hunters. I'm not sure that it fits as well with Beastmaster and for that reason I like your suggestion of conclave capstones. The other option would be to change it entirely go toward the more universally useful (across conclaves) capstone that enhance the Ranger tracking ability like Prince Humperdinck from the Princess Bride "There's no greater hunter than Prince Humperdinck. He could track a falcon on a cloudy day. He can find you."
 

Hawk Diesel

Adventurer
[MENTION=6888204]snickersnax[/MENTION] I definitely see that favored enemy is slightly greater than a ribbon ability, it's not pure fluff. However, the limited situational value of the ability puts it in a weird space where either it's awesome or useless.
 

Eddie Blanton

First Post
Hey Hawk, can you let me know what you think of the Capstone I suggested?

Generally, all of the features apply all of the time, but it does have a Favored Enemy buff. As you have been discussing, the Favored Enemy feature is "off" by default, but has pretty strong advantages when it comes into play. The Capstone I suggested plays on this by making the "on" time very worth while, with a 10% increased chance to crit the enemy.
 

Hawk Diesel

Adventurer
[MENTION=6880293]Eddie Blanton[/MENTION] There are definitely things I like about it, but it also doesn't feel like a capstone. It's definitely useful and within the approximate power level, but it is also a number of distinct abilities that aren't really unified. Most capstones provide a single new ability or enhancement. Those that don't are more thematically linked, such as the Paladin capstones.

Sorry I don't have more concrete feedback. I think it's an interesting attempt, but could use some refinement.
 

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