D&D 5E Justice Domain Cleric

[RonLugge]

So I wrote something up, and would like some honest critiques and help if anyone is interested:

http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/rJfi7uDNZ

Meat of it is on the first page, a spell on the second, and please find a large selection of my notes and reasonings on the third page.

Thanks in advance.

 

[jaelis]

Honestly, seems way too specialized to me. The abilities are probably overpowered for an investigation-type scenario, where you could often solve the mystery just by reading an object or the past. Compare to the legend lore spell, which is fairly high level and less powerful.

At the same time, in a non-investigation scenario, the abilities are mostly useless.

Also, doesn't give me a "justice" feeling... to me that would have more "punish the bad guys" stuff.

 

[RonLugge]

First, if you have any suggested fixes, please do feel free to bring them out. At the moment, I just don't think we're looking at this the same way, to the point where I'm not sure if we're communicating well.

The abilities are probably overpowered for an investigation-type scenario, where you could often solve the mystery just by reading an object or the past. Compare to the legend lore spell, which is fairly high level and less powerful.

At the same time, in a non-investigation scenario, the abilities are mostly useless.

I'm highly confused. There are some pretty serious limits on the channel divinities which would prevent them from solving most mysteries. First and foremost the one hour time limit for the reading place ability, combined with the fact that you can't repeat it *and* you have a fixed viewpoint. That's going to be a pretty major restriction. It won't do anything for the average crime of passion, but anyone who acts intelligently to counter the possibility of being found is going to be able to overcome them.

As for the power level compared to Legend Lore, to me that's like saying cure wounds is more powerful than revivify when all you want to do is heal someone. There's no overlap between the two abilities. Legend Lore would *never* help in a place where location or object reading would, and vice-versa. Legend Lore is -- please let me know if our readings differ! -- basically contacting an extremely knowledgeable sage who has read entire libraries of books and memorized them all. Really useful if you need to know general facts, or historical facts, ideas and theories, etc etc. But completely useless for 'who killed Sally last night?'

As for the abilities being useful outside an investigation scenario, I'd disagree. There's a kernal of truth to the idea, but I can come up with several scenarios where they'd be useful. Of course, that's probably because I've recently run those scenarios, or things close to them, so they were on my mind when I made the abilities. For example, in a chase (well, 'race to the goal') scene you might use scene reading to understand how the baddy got through a dungeon door in a hurry, and duplicate the feat. You might use object reading to rapidly gain access to the command word for an object (which would otherwise require an identify spell). And as far as that being a problem...

Also, doesn't give me a "justice" feeling... to me that would have more "punish the bad guys" stuff.

Which to me would be a flat out 'vengeance' domain and utterly not what I'm looking to create. Justice isn't just about punishment, it's the balance between vengeance and mercy, combined with the surety that you are acting on the right person. Think of this domain as a mixture between beat cop, investigator, and judge. You need to be able to attack and defend, investigate and act. Once you've identified the right person, the cleric class already has *loads* of tools to bring down the hurt on them. Not as many or as good as a Wizard of Sorcerer, sure, but... The domain spells were chosen to help round out the underlying abilities, not augment them.

 

[Satyrn]

This feels more about Truth than it does Justice, but it does very much fit the Truth theme. Well, except for merciful death - if you could replace that with something more truthiness related it'd be solidly Truth.

But that's really just a nitpick on the name.

As for editing, you don't mention what level Honest Truth is gained.

 

[Kobold Stew]

You have asked for honest critiques: I feel this is too powerful.

1. Radiant rebuke isn't a '"good" version of hellish rebuke; it also substitutes a rare form of damage (radiant) against one much more easily stopped (fire); pulls it gives a warlock spell to a cleric. If the damage were dropped to d6, or perhaps d8 but nonlethal damage, it might be viable. Further, you should specify that the spell is available to anyone who can cast hellish rebuke. But really, just put hellish rebuke on the spell list, and do the fire damage.

2. Other bonus spells. Haste, dimension door, and telekinesis do not seem particularly relevant to the theme, and the first two are significant combat boosts.

3. Bonus proficiencies. You are giving a rouge's expertise on any two of four very useful skills. Too much choice. Remove perception and intimidation, and let players choose proficiency and expertise on one of either Investigation or Insight, and it's fine (I understand you are "balancing" against heavy armour and martial weapons; I'm not concerned about that, since this is not a front-line fighter. It should be weaker than the rogue ability.

4. Merciful death. I understand you see this as a ribbon ability. I do not, and it seems very powerful. It can turn a loyal NPC into a suicide bomber; it can make someone feel unaware that they are being attacked. It is a high-level ability that could change a game in the hands of a clever player. (Feels no pain? at all? without a save? Tell me you couldn't hack that in some way).

There are some proofreading things (this was once called the Executioner?), but they are easily caught. I think it just needs to be dialled back. A home-brew domain should be interesting, and point to a new way of playing a cleric, but shouldn't be an automatic choice. I hope this helps.

 

[RonLugge]

1. Radiant rebuke isn't a '"good" version of hellish rebuke; it also substitutes a rare form of damage (radiant) against one much more easily stopped (fire); pulls it gives a warlock spell to a cleric. If the damage were dropped to d6, or perhaps d8 but nonlethal damage, it might be viable. Further, you should specify that the spell is available to anyone who can cast hellish rebuke. But really, just put hellish rebuke on the spell list, and do the fire damage.

As per someone else's advice, I'm looking at moving the radiant rebuke into a wisdom mod per day ability, similar to the thunder domain.

2. Other bonus spells. Haste, dimension door, and telekinesis do not seem particularly relevant to the theme, and the first two are significant combat boosts.

Part of it was an issue with finding 'relevant' spells at the appropriate levels, but don't forget that this domain also -- to a degree -- does the work of a 'beat cop'. Being able to chase down a fleeing suspect, disarm someone, or get to the scene of disturbance very, very quickly are useful to that role.

At this point, I'm close to revising the entire domain spell list based on feedback. Something like...

Comprehend Languages, Longstrider or Expeditious Retreat; Detect Thoughts,Zone of Truth; Tongues, ???;Arcane Eye, Dimension Door, Passwall, ???

4. Merciful death. I understand you see this as a ribbon ability. I do not, and it seems very powerful. It can turn a loyal NPC into a suicide bomber; it can make someone feel unaware that they are being attacked. It is a high-level ability that could change a game in the hands of a clever player. (Feels no pain? at all? without a save? Tell me you couldn't hack that in some way).

I need to edit it to be clearer: these can ONLY be used on someone already condemned to die, and under the control of the cleric to begin with -- someone on Death Row. In other words, the only scenario it would work in is one where you say 'I kill him' and the NPC dies, no rolls required.

There are some proofreading things (this was once called the Executioner?)

I came up with this last night, brand new, with no support other than reading through PHB and some unearthed arcana for ideas. I'm not surprised there are a number of proofreading issues I still haven't caught.

 

[schnee]

Take all of this with a grain of salt. I LOVE the idea, I just think it feels a bit too un-Cleric like due to the spell choice.

I think the spell list goes for more powerful and arcane-feeling Wizard-like spells when a Cleric spell would probably do. That makes it feel a bit jarring flavor-wise.

One example: do you need Dimension Door, when Freedom of Movement allows one to give chase, while resisting the attempts of the fleeing to prevent them from following? Freedom of Movement would create an implacable feel - you can run, but Justice will be following, and none of the impediments you throw in it's way will stop it.

Is Haste really the flavor you want? That seems like an unnatural amount of speed, not Cleric-like. Why not Spiritual Guardians? That feels like the wrath of God coming down, and the wrongdoer is slowed down, the deliverer of Justice wreathed by God's agents to bear witness.

It's just stuff like that. It's a taste issue, so it may not fit the theme you're going for - maybe you DO want it to be very over-and-above a normal Cleric in feel - but I feel like an agent of holy justice should use more 'divine' feeling spells.

HTH man. Looking forward to what it turns in to.

 

[RonLugge]

Updated the class based on feedback. Clarified the (sharp) limits on Merciful Death, but I suspect I need to be more clear. Redid the domain spells and bonus proficiencies, with an extension out towards level 8's feature.