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D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

JeffB

Legend
Is that not exactly what Fantasy Flight Games has done with their Star Wars books?

The mechanics are repeated from book to book..like..skills, combat, etc. But most of the details are all different. Completely different classes, different vehicles, Big focus on the force in F&D, Different focus on campaign design/advice, different sections/planets of the galaxy described, etc..

But keep in mind Star Wars is "the same campaign setting". Its not like Dark Sun vs. Ravenloft.
 

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Hussar

Legend
This is an interesting point.

My familiarity with fantasy fiction is rather narrow - some "modern classic" children's authors (Susan Cooper, Alan Garner), the Earthsea stories, JRRT, REH and a smattering of Vance. Of those authors, JRRT assumes monotheism; Earthsea really does seem to be "godless" (the God-kings clearly are just humans, and the ancient beings like the Terennon and the Nameless Ones of Atuan are more like primal spirits in D&D terms); REH has many demon-worshipping cults and the like, but what few manifestations there are of what might potentially be divine action (eg in the Phoenix on the Sword and the Hour of the Dragon) are consistent with monotheism.

/snip.

Wait.. what? REH and Hyboria is a monotheistic setting? What books are you reading. Conan worships Crom. Set worshippers fill the pages. Mitra is a goddess in the setting complete with priesthood. I'm sure there are more gods as well.

That's a serious reach if you want to claim that Hyboria is monotheistic.
 

Hussar

Legend
Swimming upthread a bit




Players: Does the Great Wheel still exist? Does the Astral Plane still exist? How does the Astral Projection spell work? Do Drow still worship Lolth? How do Angels and Eladrin work? Is an Aasimar race possible? Commune spell? Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

The 5e Players Handbook hardwires into an extremely specific cosmological setting. It hardwires into the 5e version of Forgotten Realms.

A DM can design a campaign setting that creates space for much of this, happily removes some of this, and rewrites certain flavors.

A problem is, the players are reading something else.

But, this is always true. I'm running Primeval Thule right now. All of those questions apply, and would apply regardless of what edition I'm running. Funnily enough, the answer to virtually all of those questions for my Thule campaign would be "No". After all in Thule:

  • There is no Great Wheel
  • There are no planes, or at least, nothing you can access. Demons and whatnot are no longer planar, but, rather Extraterrean Type and are from other worlds or from space (or possibly time :D )
  • Since this campaign we're playing, you're not allowed to play any full casters, don't worry about Astral Projection
  • Drow? What's a Drow? Sorry, Elves in PT are all insane drug addicted sociopaths who are slowly dying out
  • Angel? Eladrin? Heh, you're funny
  • Commune? See Astral Projection

And the thing is, you have to do that for EVERY setting. Heck you admit that [MENTION=58172]Yaarel[/MENTION]. You want a complete bloody Player's Handbook for every setting with a very setting neutral base PHB. What difference does it make? You are still going to have to explain your homebrew setting to your players. Sorry, that's always been true and will always be true.

This is just DMing 101 stuff.
 

cbwjm

Seb-wejem
Swimming upthread a bit






But, this is always true. I'm running Primeval Thule right now. All of those questions apply, and would apply regardless of what edition I'm running. Funnily enough, the answer to virtually all of those questions for my Thule campaign would be "No". After all in Thule:

  • There is no Great Wheel
  • There are no planes, or at least, nothing you can access. Demons and whatnot are no longer planar, but, rather Extraterrean Type and are from other worlds or from space (or possibly time :D )
  • Since this campaign we're playing, you're not allowed to play any full casters, don't worry about Astral Projection
  • Drow? What's a Drow? Sorry, Elves in PT are all insane drug addicted sociopaths who are slowly dying out
  • Angel? Eladrin? Heh, you're funny
  • Commune? See Astral Projection

And the thing is, you have to do that for EVERY setting. Heck you admit that [MENTION=58172]Yaarel[/MENTION]. You want a complete bloody Player's Handbook for every setting with a very setting neutral base PHB. What difference does it make? You are still going to have to explain your homebrew setting to your players. Sorry, that's always been true and will always be true.

This is just DMing 101 stuff.

What's more, if it is a problem now that players are reading the PHB and asking questions about a homebrew, imagine what a DM would have to deal with if they had a group of 5 players and each of them had a different setting PHB? "How does the dragon prophecy work? Can I play a defiler?, Is this before or after the Cataclysm? What about whatever Birthright and Spelljammer had?"
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
Ideally, I want to see new versions of the Players Handbook for every new setting.

Eberron Players Handbook: Warforged race, Artificer class, the pertinent archetypes for core classes present, Psionics, diversity of religious traditions, reflavoring of spells for the unique Eberron cosmology, etcetera.

Dark Sun Players Handbook: Thri-Keen race, Elemental Cleric class, Psionics, Defiling Magic, harsh life, The Dragon, the unique cosmology of the Black and the Gray, reflavoring the spells, etcetera.

And so on.


Make these stand-alone all you need Players Handbooks, with a rewrite of the relevant core races (maybe with only one subrace given), and pertinent core classes (with pertinent archetypes), all the combat rules and so on, so there is no need to refer to the defacto Forgotten Realms Players Handbooks.

They've done exactly what you suggested. The PHB has the relevant core races - the ones they say are the relevant ones based on the settings and feedback (and dragonborn, tieflings and such are optional and may not be in every setting).

And despite you continuing to say it, it doesn't make it true. The PHB, DMG, and MM are not defacto Forgotten Realms books. There are as many references to the other settings within them, and the references to the other settings combined outnumber the Forgotten Realms references. The very first example in the PHB is Ravenloft. Quotes from novels are mostly from the Realms, because they have the most novels and the most recognizable characters. But there are examples from the Dragonlance novels as well. Once you get into the classes, they talk about their place in each of the settings where appropriate.

Almost all of the setting material, Forgotten Realms or otherwise, is either quotes from novels, or examples. The only actual rule that is tied to the Forgotten Realms is the list of human races, which is still just an example ("In the Forgotten Realms, for example..."). Other than that, find me a rule in the book that is Forgotten Realms specific.

The APs are set in the Forgotten Realms (except, of course CoS), but the PHB, DMG, and MM are not. I agree that VGtM was a miss, both in the content (probably 50%+ I don't care for), and by releasing a MM that is really for all campaigns, but tying it to the Realms directly. I suspect you and I will have the same complaint about the XGtE - there's no need to release a book that is presumably for all settings (and/or includes material not appropriate for the Realms) in a book centered around a Realms character. Of course, if the history of the last two editions means anything, then they'll continue to dump everything into the Realms. But I really hope that's not the case and that they maintain separation for what makes Eberron, Dark Sun, and other settings (including the Forgotten Realms) unique.

In 4e they decided, for whatever reason, to homogenize everything. They wanted to design a niche for each race, each class, and do it in a "D&D" way instead of based off of material that influenced the game. So they decided to change the eladrin to something different, and replace most of the elves with eladrin, for example. And then infected every world (including the Realms) with this inane idea.

For 5e they figured out what D&D really had - the multiverse. Where different worlds with the same base rules are interconnected with the planes (and eventually Spelljammer again). And the multiverse, in D&D lore, is the home of the gods.

So you can want to see a PHB for each setting, but you won't get one. You probably won't get a campaign setting book for each setting.

Like it or not, this is D&D. This is the product that they decided best represented the history of D&D and the whole of D&D players. Obviously, when you're playing to that large a group, you won't make everyone happy. In fact, I think it's fair to say that nobody will be happy with 100% of what's published. But the goal is to try and make something that's at least 80% of what everyone wants.

From what I can tell (particularly based on our discussion in another thread), they've made you more than 80% happy. There were fewer than 100 sentences (not including the Appendix on the gods) that referenced polytheism, which was what you objected to, in the PHB. You're just choosing to focus on the less than 100 sentences instead of the book as a whole. Maybe you hate the cleric entirely. That's still probably less than 20% of the book.

So if you want to continue to complain about fewer than 100 sentences, that's fine, you're certainly entitled to do so. But don't expect it to change the designer's minds or approach. They've got a huge hit on their hands, and they're going to continue to build on the foundation they've laid.
 

Azzy

ᚳᚣᚾᛖᚹᚢᛚᚠ
In the real world, each person thinks their religion is true, but there are a vast variety of beliefs (including atheism) because the supernatural is a great mystery. In D&D, the gods are empirically established as real like any politician or celebrity. This results in a single pantheon of gods that all sentient creatures recognize as true. Only a delusional person (or elf or dwarf, etc.) would deny that those gods exist or believe that some other gods exist.

That's not a necessity, though. You could have clerics simply manifest through faith alone, and leave the issue of whether gods exist or not nebulous.
 



pemerton

Legend
Wait.. what? REH and Hyboria is a monotheistic setting? What books are you reading. Conan worships Crom. Set worshippers fill the pages. Mitra is a goddess in the setting complete with priesthood. I'm sure there are more gods as well.

That's a serious reach if you want to claim that Hyboria is monotheistic.
I said that "what few manifestations there are of what might potentially be divine action (eg in the Phoenix on the Sword and the Hour of the Dragon) are consistent with monotheism." The alternative is that its godless. (HPL's world is godless, but REH seems to leave it an open question.)

The Set worshippers are just magicians.
 


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