D&D 5E How many vegepygmies is too many vegepygmies for a 4th level party?

[der_kluge]

Just as the title says. Assuming I have 1 chief, and n numbers of vegepygmies, how many would be a completely ridiculous number of that such that I should be ashamed as GM.

The rules in the DMG for this seem like complete garbage to me. 10 Vegepygmies would be, according them, "deadly", when the reality is that any sort of AoE spell will likely destroy most of them. Granted, my PCs don't have access to fireball, but even 20 vegepygmies would be a complete cakewalk to a 5th level party which does.

 

[ccs]

Just as the title says. Assuming I have 1 chief, and n numbers of vegepygmies, how many would be a completely ridiculous number of that such that I should be ashamed as GM.

1 or less per party member, assuming the goal of the encounter is violence.

 

[der_kluge]

1 or less per party member, assuming the goal of the encounter is violence.

This same party killed (in one encounter): 4 zombies, 8 skeletons, 1 ogre zombie, 3 4th level cultists, and 1 5th level necromancer. Granted, they had assistance with an extra NPC cleric and paladin - and the encounter took basically 5 hours.

And then at the end, the high priest (which didn't attack), turned into a wraith, and created 2 additional spectres. Which they also finished off.

Same party also killed a CR 11 Efreeti, with a help of a 5th level NPC wizard.

So yea. 4 Vegepygmies would be over in about 2 rounds, tops.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I couldn't answer this without knowing the environment it would take place. Sounds like the party would get the drop on them and they would all be in the same small area (so a single AoE spell would affect them) by your OP. If that's the case, probably more than the general guidelines would be needed.

 

[Demetrios1453]

This same party killed (in one encounter): 4 zombies, 8 skeletons, 1 ogre zombie, 3 4th level cultists, and 1 5th level necromancer. Granted, they had assistance with an extra NPC cleric and paladin - and the encounter took basically 5 hours.

And then at the end, the high priest (which didn't attack), turned into a wraith, and created 2 additional spectres. Which they also finished off.

Same party also killed a CR 11 Efreeti, with a help of a 5th level NPC wizard.

So yea. 4 Vegepygmies would be over in about 2 rounds, tops.

Sounds like you need an infinite amount of vegepygmies then. Or maybe a machine that keeps spitting them out until the party wrecks it...

Sent from my VS987 using EN World mobile app

 

[Harzel]

Just as the title says. Assuming I have 1 chief, and n numbers of vegepygmies, how many would be a completely ridiculous number of that such that I should be ashamed as GM.

The rules in the DMG for this seem like complete garbage to me. 10 Vegepygmies would be, according them, "deadly", when the reality is that any sort of AoE spell will likely destroy most of them. Granted, my PCs don't have access to fireball, but even 20 vegepygmies would be a complete cakewalk to a 5th level party which does.

The jump from 4th to 5th level is very substantial, precisely because of things like fireball. But if the party even at 4th level has access to an AoE and the vegepygmies cooperatively appear in fireball formation, then, yes, they will be short-lived.

This same party killed (in one encounter): 4 zombies, 8 skeletons, 1 ogre zombie, 3 4th level cultists, and 1 5th level necromancer. Granted, they had assistance with an extra NPC cleric and paladin - and the encounter took basically 5 hours.

And then at the end, the high priest (which didn't attack), turned into a wraith, and created 2 additional spectres. Which they also finished off.

A party of 6 is much different than a party of 4, especially if the extra 2 are a pally and a cleric and you are fighting undead. Was the necro the high priest? If so, you really can't count him in the first wave if he didn't attack. In any case, two waves are a lot easier than the same total creatures all at once.

Same party also killed a CR 11 Efreeti, with a help of a 5th level NPC wizard.

Solo monsters are horribly disadvantaged by the action economy, especially if they don't have legendary actions. And a 5th level wizard is a lot of help. I'm not surprised they killed it, though I would have expected at least a couple PCs to be knocked down in the process.

So yea. 4 Vegepygmies would be over in about 2 rounds, tops.

Even by DMG standards, 4vps + chief is only maybe a medium encounter, so yeah your PCs will not break a sweat.

Basically, you are right, generally the DMG guidelines substantially overestimate encounter difficulty. I think one reason for this though, is that there are a lot of variables that affect difficulty a lot and the table was likely tuned as absolute worst case for the PCs.

• Player expertise is a big factor. It sounds like your crew is fairly capable. Probably calls for at least 1.5x the # of vps right there.
• Do the PCs have magic items? Those generally increase their punch substantially over what is 'expected' for the DMG guidelines.
• What will be the tactical circumstances of the encounter and how will you play the vps? Will they line up in fireball formation to be taken out by an AoE? Opponents who focus fire are a lot more deadly; vps probably are smart enough to do that to any great extent. However, if the vps have any warning of the PCs arrival at all, I'd have at least half of them trying to hide so the PCs may not know initially where or how many there are.
• Do the PCs know about vp regen and how to counter it? This could be a biggie. If they do, then they can mow the vps down; if not, then they are going to keep popping back up.
• Can any of the PCs cast sleep? That will be fairly devastating if a bunch can be caught together since it bypasses the regen ability.

All things considered? Assuming that the PCs don't have too many magic items, and they don't have NPC help, and they don't know about vp regen, and the vps don't line up in fireball formation, and the vps all engage at once (instead of in waves), but do not focus fire, then it seems like maybe 20 should be enough to scare the PCs without killing them. If you don't think that is enough, I think instead of more vps it would be more fun to throw in a thorny or two and maybe a druid-like vp caster who can toss Charm Person and Entangle (because it would be flavorful) and maybe a Cure Wounds ​for the chief.

 

[der_kluge]

So, this encounter should be tough. But there's literally more to come in the dungeon, so I don't want to wipe them out, obviously. But from a terrain perspective, they're in an underground river. So, they are swimming in a cave, essentially. The river opens up to an area choked with vines and moss, and small tendrils of light coming from above, filtered through the roots of large trees. Initially, they'll be at quite a disadvantage, since they're literally swimming in water. Once they get onto the banks, they'll be better off. I'm also planning on throwing in some russet mold into the area for some added fun.

I'm thinking maybe 8 vegepygmies, with a chieftain. That feels about right to me.

The party is a druid (often in bear form), a ranger, a cleric, and a rogue.

 

[Azzy]

I'd say 20,000.

 

[Quickleaf]

Just as the title says. Assuming I have 1 chief, and n numbers of vegepygmies, how many would be a completely ridiculous number of that such that I should be ashamed as GM.

The rules in the DMG for this seem like complete garbage to me. 10 Vegepygmies would be, according them, "deadly", when the reality is that any sort of AoE spell will likely destroy most of them. Granted, my PCs don't have access to fireball, but even 20 vegepygmies would be a complete cakewalk to a 5th level party which does.

It depends more on context than on numbers.

Let's take those 10 Vegepygmies.

Now let's say 4 of them are about to emerge from Russet Mold infecting two Medium-sized corpses with very tempting loot like a potion, a sack of gems, and either a map or key. Russet Mold is described in Volo's Guide page 196.

The other 6 are hiding up ahead with their Plant Camouflage, some 30 feet up on a ledge, ready to use their slings – using the Help action to attack in pairs, either to negate disadvantage from distance or to have better hit chance against armored targets.

The wall of the ledge itself is covered in razorvine (see DMG page 110), making climbing up a risky proposition.

Maybe the potion appears to be anti-venom, but is actually a potion of poison (a minor tweak from the DMG which has potions of poison appear as healing potions).

Not so easy anymore, is it?

And if this is a room deeper in a dungeon which the PCs are likely to encounter while their resources are depleted, it becomes more challenging.

 

[Celebrim]

Three vegepygmies per party member plus a chief would I think be near the reasonable limit. Four vegepygmies per party member plus a chief would then I think be ridiculous, and five vegepygmies per party member should make you ashamed.

Of course, depending on how you "Tuckerize" them, fewer than that could be a significant challenge but then it wouldn't be the vegepygmies per se that were causing the threat.

The thing with mooks though is that how hard they are depends chiefly to their access to area of effect spells, as you know. Yes, in every edition of the game, having access to fireball radically decreases the threat of large numbers of mooks, but they don't yet have fireball. Likewise, in every edition of the game, once a mook gets about four levels below the party, the threat they represent starts to go down drastically. 3e's means of calculating EL also produces crap results at about this same point, as eventually the treat from doubling mooks no longer is all that substantial. But I don't think the dropoff is going to be as steep in 5e, because you aren't going to be able to as easily ramp your AC up to the point that they just can't hit you.