D&D 5E D&D Promises to Make the Game More Queer

[tombowings]

You .... didn't read the article, did you?

I did. The key word in my post is "merely." You may have missed it.

 

[Ristamar]

No. It's a great agenda - my opinion. But propaganda is not the right way to advance one's ideology - also my opinion.

Maybe we should establish communal understanding as to what constitutes propaganda before there is further discussion.

By a strict, sterile definition*, I might see how one could label Crawford's decision as potential propaganda. That being said, the modern and more common usage of the word now carries a lot of negative connotations and is typically associated with misinformation, rumors, and lies.


* PROPAGANDA
noun
1. information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc.

 

[Morrus]

D&D Promises to Make the Game More Queer

Exactly. Correct message, wrong medium. It's as simple as that.

"You have a point, but for now get to the back of the bus?" The "correct message" doesn't get sent to the back of the bus because it gets in your way of your entertainment. It’s more important than your entertainment. And putting it in your entertainment is just letting everybody sit where they like on the bus.

 

[Warpiglet]

People are fine with ignoring the absolute importance of Christianity when playing a Medieval-inspired game because our Western society has long since embraced the idea of religious freedom. We don't bat an eye at pretending to worship pantheons of divinities, but from the perspective of the Medieval society the game draws upon, it's tantamount to worshiping the Devil. This may sound kind of a silly point, and the point is just that -- it's silly because religious freedom is so ingrained in our culture.

But some folks are not quite as ready to ignore Medieval notions on gender and sexual minorities. And the reason for that is because our society has just barely started to move away from treating queer people as taboo and something socially unacceptable.

The selective nature of what we keep from the source material (old European societies and cultures) is very much linked to our current societal attitudes.

Yep.

I have been fed a steady diet of fantasy with pantheons and so on and therefore they do not take me out of the game. If we are inspired by Vikings, certainly pantheons make sense. If every other character was transgendered or gay, it would be a distraction to me and perhaps many others. In D&D I am looking for some semblance of previous fiction.

So unless I am in it for political reasons, why wouldn't I choose what is more immersive for me? You can rightly point out that what is immersive to me is biased or whatever. I understand that point.

However, I am not into D&D for political reasons. I read about politics, I vote, I do my civic duty and donate to charity aside from my gaming. That is enough for me.

On some glorious weekends though I roll funny looking dice and slay monsters. If someone wants to make D&D political (i.e. referencing modern day causes and using modern day aesthetics) I say go for it! It would just not appeal to me for the reasons stated anymore than including firearms in sword and sorcery settings do for me. I know. This is where someone says "but your guy uses a sword they did not have in Melnibone!" I am sure there are many ways to explain why/how I must be consistent in my preferences.

Is it right or wrong? I make no statement about that just like I am not saying killing someone with a sword is morally superior to shooting them. In my play-world however, I am looking for certain traditions, tropes and references which are often divorced from modern culture and politics and evoke previous fiction I have enjoyed.

I am optimistic that the current authors of D&D can see to it that many people will find what they are looking for and that LGBT players will experience some acknowledgement. They can do this without deconstructing previous fiction that many enjoy. They can also do so in a way that proselytizes and turns people away. I think they have demonstrated that they are smart enough to pursue the former without the latter.

 

[Caliban]

I'm America.

You are not America. You may be an American, but please don't presume to represent our entire country.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[tombowings]

So, because you live in a socially backward country, you feel justified in judging the actions and motivations of people who live and work elsewhere?

(Not claiming America is necessarily any better. Being gay in America can be dangerous if you live in the wrong area.)

But being gay isn't a sin. It isn't a mental condition. It isn't even a choice (unless you are in fact bisexual and choose to focus on one sex over another for some reason.)

It's biology - a tiny minority of people are born that way, due to some combination of genetic and environmental factors that isn't fully understood.

So homosexuals will exist in every society on earth, and if you want a fantasy society to mirror real world society outside of the fantastic elements, then they will exist in that society as well. Usually as a minority, (unless the one of the fantastic elements is a much higher ratio of LGBT individuals).

Wholehearted agree with everything you're just said.

It doesn't take a "gay agenda" or "gay propaganda" to include them in an adventure. It just takes acknowledging that they exist in the game setting, just like they exist in the real world. Chris Crawford included a homosexual household in the adventure that mirrored a real world homosexual household - his own. He didn't make them the focus of the adventure, he didn't have them spouting "gay rights" propaganda, and as far as I know, there were no "gay themed" quests given out as a result of them.

So despite your claims to the contrary, it is hard to believe you are objecting to gay propaganda, because there is none to be found.

You instead come off as objecting to the mere existence of a gay couple in the adventure.

Adding gays in adventure: good.
Adding gays to make ideological point (even if I agree with that ideology): bad - because it's the wrong medium to discuss the issue.

 

[Caliban]

Adding gays in adventure: good.
Adding gays to make ideological point (even if I agree with that ideology): bad - because it's the wrong medium to discuss the issue.

Not your call to make.

 

[Jester David]

Like I said to the other guy, I live in a country in which being gay can get the local priest to ask his choir boys to come over and drown you in a river - and it's not a uncommon occurrence. It's a sensitive topic. Honestly, I would be doing it just as much for your safety as I would be for their sense of comfort, because if word got out that there was a chance you could be gay, your life would be in serious danger.

Okay, it sucks that you live in a country like that. (Which one?)

But WotC might sell D&D worldwide, but it's really focused on the western world (the USA, Canada, England, etc). They can't let what other countries might think alter their agenda. They can't and shouldn't let the politics and social views of Brazil or Japan or Greece dictate what they include or don't include.

 

[tombowings]

Excellent!

Now go and re-read it, identifying all the quotes from Crawford, not the reporter's word. Here, I'll help!

“I wasn’t about to have this book go out and not acknowledge that people like me exist,”
“That was a nod specifically to our household,” Crawford said of himself, his husband, and his nephew, who lived with them in 2016 when Storm King’s Thunder was in development. “Although the two men are older than my husband and I are,”
“Ever since we brought our adventure design fully back in-house,” he said, “all of our new adventures contain LGBT characters. This is true of our next adventure, Tomb of Annihilation, and it will be true of our stories after that.”
“You don’t want a party where everyone’s the same,” he said. “It’s a game where you’re always better off working together, working through your differences and achieving victory together, even when you sometimes disagree. So in so many ways a lot of what we’re doing are lessons from D&D itself.”“It’s important to many of us personally in the company for the game to acknowledge our existence."
“It makes a real difference in people’s lives.”

So, where is the propaganda, again? He says that he wanted representation of people like him (and apparently others that work at WoTC) in the game. So they are there. And it's important, and he feels (like almost all of us) that this in keeping with the game's message.

And you have repeatedly stated that the actual product released is fine! So ... where is the problem. Please be specific, since you keep indicating that it was Crawford's statements that made you change your mind. Or, to quote the earlier quote-

"You agree with us in the goal we seek, but you can't agree with us in methods of our action."

Propagandist phrases:

1. “I wasn’t about to have this book go out and not acknowledge..."
2. "It’s important ... for the game to acknowledge our existence." (Specifically the word "important." I don't included the rest of the quote because the word important standing there alone doesn't make much sense.)

Honestly, this is an minuscule point that's been blown up to the size the Jupiter.