D&D 5E Mike Mearls: Ranged Paladin doesn't break anything

[CapnZapp]

I take what he's saying as "It's equivalent to being a Great Weapon Fighter or Sword & Board Paladin", which is not off the mark. Is ranged combat good? Sure. But to be a good archer you have to build the character around DEX instead of STR, and you lose Athletics, encumbrance (if you track that, and you should), and the AC benefits of heavy armor and shields.

You mean like DEX-build Fighters and Rangers, or EB-spamming Warlocks, already do?

I'm having trouble reading your message here. First you seem to argue ranged builds give up about as much as they gain (which is false), but then you seem to acknowledge how savvy players play the game?

No, it doesn't mean that. It means a different player will have to soak the considerable melee damage of monsters.

Oh, you sweet summer child... you must approach competent party tactics just like MMearls...

 

[CapnZapp]

Are we talking 'at range.. instead of in melee' or 'both ranged and melee'?

Because there's a fairly big difference between the two! I know a paladin or three that'd enjoy throwing the odd javelin for some smitey goodness, even though they're using S&D/Great weapons...


..and with Crossbow expert, even the, '..at range instead of melee' becomes a moot point.

Exactly. There's your answer right there.

 

[Irda Ranger]

Are we talking 'at range.. instead of in melee' or 'both ranged and melee'?

Because there's a fairly big difference between the two! I know a paladin or three that'd enjoy throwing the odd javelin for some smitey goodness, even though they're using S&D/Great weapons...

Well first off, don't get "attacks" and "weapon types" confused. RAW Divine Smite applies to "melee weapons", and javelins (like hand axes and daggers) are melee weapons, even when you throw them. Sage Advice has confirmed this. So your Paladin friends can smite with a javelin under RAW.

As for proposed house rules, he didn't specify whether it was "and" or "or", so I assume it means "and" is fine, but you house rule how you like.

 

[Irda Ranger]

I'm having trouble reading your message here. First you seem to argue ranged builds give up about as much as they gain (which is false), but then you seem to acknowledge how savvy players play the game?

Oh, you sweet summer child... you must approach competent party tactics just like MMearls...

Mearls' comment was that Paladins didn't get the Archery fighting style or ranged smite for flavor reasons only, and that if you give it to them it's balanced with the other range combatants. If you think Ranged combat itself is broken/too powerful, that's not a problem with the Paladin class.

Personally, as both a DM and player, I don't think ranged combat is broken. 5E combat rules require that the DM adjust their combat tactics. If you always start your combats at 100 paces, and only one side has good ranged fighters, then yeah, it's broken. But if bad guys have good ranged attacks, or know how to ambush and close the distance quickly, then it isn't.

So knock it off with your "sweet summer child" nonsense.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Before people start losing their cheerios, it's also worth noting that "making the paladin a bit more powerful" does not mean remotely the same as "it breaks the game".

 

[Gardens & Goblins]

Well first off, don't get "attacks" and "weapon types" confused. RAW Divine Smite applies to "melee weapons", and javelins (like hand axes and daggers) are melee weapons, even when you throw them. Sage Advice has confirmed this. So your Paladin friends can smite with a javelin under RAW.

As for proposed house rules, he didn't specify whether it was "and" or "or", so I assume it means "and" is fine, but you house rule how you like.

Can you though? A javelin, when used as a ranged weapon, is classed as a ranged weapon.

Actually, found the clarification from Sage Advice:

What does “melee weapon attack” mean: a melee attack with a weapon or an attack with a melee weapon?

It means a melee attack with a weapon. Similarly, “ranged weapon attack” means a ranged attack with a weapon. Some attacks count as a melee or ranged weapon attack even if a weapon isn’t involved, as specified in the text of those attacks. For example, an unarmed strike counts as a melee weapon attack, even though the attacker’s body isn’t considered a weapon.

So if I'm understanding correctly, no, a paladin cannot smite with a javelin when using it to make a ranged attack.

 

[Sacrosanct]

So knock it off with your "sweet summer child" nonsense.

I actually laughed at that, because the examples of his tactics that we've seen in the past (from his thread of combat examples), "competent tactics" is probably the last way I'd describe them. From those examples, I really get the impression that he thinks tactics is solely on how you build your PC, and once the game actually is being played, actual tactics are tossed out of the window. I.e., everything is dependent on ability combinations, and no thought is given to the environment or actual scenario

 

[Irda Ranger]

So if I'm understanding correctly, no, a paladin cannot smite with a javelin when using it to make a ranged attack.

Arghh! I was thinking of a different quote from the same PDF, but I misread it-

A melee weapon, such as a dagger or handaxe, is still a melee weapon when you make a ranged attack with it.

WHY DOES 'MELEE WEAPON ATTACK' AND 'ATTACK WITH A MELEE WEAPON' MEAN TWO DIFFERENT THINGS?? WHY GOD, WHY!?!

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Well first off, don't get "attacks" and "weapon types" confused.

RAW Divine Smite applies to "melee weapons",

No, it applies to melee weapon attacks. i.e attacks with a weapon, in melee.

and javelins (like hand axes and daggers) are melee weapons, even when you throw them.

Yes, but when you throw them, you are making a ranged weapon attack: an attack with a weapon at range.
Compare and contrast with "attack with a melee weapon" - which could be performed at range with a thrown weapon other than a dart.

Sage Advice has confirmed this. So your Paladin friends can smite with a javelin under RAW.

I'm pretty sure sage advice confirmed precisely the opposite: You can't smite when throwing a javelin, but you can smite when clubbing someone with the butt of your crossbow.

As for proposed house rules, he didn't specify whether it was "and" or "or", so I assume it means "and" is fine, but you house rule how you like.

Your houserules; you get to pick whether you use and or or.

 

[Gardens & Goblins]

Arghh! I was thinking of a different quote from the same PDF, but I misread it-


WHY DOES 'MELEE WEAPON ATTACK' AND 'ATTACK WITH A MELEE WEAPON' MEAN TWO DIFFERENT THINGS?? WHY GOD, WHY!?!

Oh I totally agree - it's about as clearly written as mud man's dissertation written on the walls of the Cavern of Eternal Darkness.