Sadras
Legend
One might also want to simulate general fatigue. One need not necessarily die from fatigue (little or no rest), one might simply pass out.
D&D 5E [ToA] Heat & Heavy (armor)
One might also want to simulate general fatigue. One need not necessarily die from fatigue (little or no rest), one might simply pass out.
CapnZapp
Legend
"using the exhaustion track for anything except simulating death by dehydration or starvation is stupid, because the effects are irrelevant and overly harsh."
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Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app
Waterbizkit
Explorer
Because we're not talking about being "slightly warm". Because out here in the real world heatstroke is a thing that drops people who aren't trekking through a jungle wearing a tin can.
At the end of the day this is all about how much "realism" people want to inject into their games. Some want to gloss over this kind of stuff because they feel like it doesn't add enough to the game to justify the extra hoops everyone has to jump through, but some people enjoy it. Personally I don't sweat this stuff, no pun intended, unless it helps to emphasize an interesting aspect of the adventure, but others like to use it all the time or perhaps not at all. We all do our own thing and it's all good.
As an aside, if people want to really put the hurt on the party for trekking through a sweltering jungle remember this: simply drinking an adequate amount of water isn't enough to dodge heatstroke and exhaustion. You also need to rest, a lot. Look up work/rest charts for working in high temps and you'll find that even when doing "moderate work" at temps around the high 80's you're supposed to rest about 30 minutes for every 30 you exert yourself. That's the sort of thing that will really slow down an adventure. If you want it to...
Anyway, I'm not personally bothered either way. But if some people want to emphasize the difficulty of being active in a jungle, the more power to them.
CapnZapp
Legend
Exactly. Those that dislike a heat rule would be better off *not using* it, than posting made-up justifications why it shouldn't exist.
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Oofta
Legend
So all the soldiers fighting in real world wars today are dropping like flies? The crusaders* got out of the middle east because they couldn't stand the heat?
I get it. Jungle hot. I've backpacked in the jungle (Peru) and it sucks. Especially when you go in June (which is supposed to be their winter) but it's unusually hot and humid. But you slowly acclimate, take it easy and, no we didn't have people dropping like flies despite carrying backpacks.
People die from heat exhaustion all the time without wearing heavy armor. How much would armor contribute to the likelihood of heat exhaustion? Heck if I know - and I would bet that no one else on this thread does either. People seem to think you should strip naked to be cool, but many people in hot climates instead wear multiple layers of clothes.
In a world where arrows bounce off the barbarian's pecs because he's "tough", why is it so important to penalize people in armor based on suppositions and guesswork of how it should work?
*Yes, I know the crusaders didn't wear plate armor, it wasn't the type of armor they wore in that period. But the chain armor they did wear would still be categorized as heavy.
Sacrosanct
Legend
Soldiers today (I was one) don't drop like flies because we are provided a lot of water. And even then, when the heat index gets too high, activities are suspended unless you're in the middle of a battle and can't stop.
Also, lack of water and heat devastated the crusaders, and was the direct cause of at least two disastrous losses (including the most famous battle of Hattin). Byzantine military manuals of the time placed a high stress on the importance of water redundancy (like the old specops saying "2 is 1, 1 is none"). The crusaders learned this the hard way as they suffered heat/dehydration casualties left and right. 6000 French crusaders died from this in Xerigordon alone.
Waterbizkit
Explorer
There's a lot to respond to here and I'm posting from my phone, so please bear with me since formatting and proofreading are a nightmare.
I never said people would be dropping like flies and putting words in my mouth or using hyperbole to make your point do you no favors. I simply stated a fact of living in the real world: if you over-exert yourself in extreme heat the consequences of doing so are not pleasant. And by the by, in controlled circumstances, i.e. not combat, the military does take the possibility of heat casualties very seriously and will try to adhere to the guidelines whenever possible.
So what you're saying here is that you acclimated, hydrated properly, and "took it easy" when it came to exerting yourself? Sounds an awful lot like following guidelines for being active in extreme heat, the kind of thing that won't see you end up a heat casualty.
And we all have anecdotes. Half my players were in the military at one point or another. One of them, just before he got out a few years back, had his unit sent to Louisiana for training exercises. His commander decided to ignore the guidelines for extreme heat because he apparently thought he was bad ass... so many soldiers in the unit got sidelined, approximately 40% of an entire battalion, as heat casualties the entire exercise had to be called off. See? We all have anecdotes.
Because some people like it. For some people trying to emphasize something like the oppressive heat of being active in a jungle is something they want to do with more than just words, some people want mechanics that will back that up. There's nothing wrong with people wanting to emphasize points of "realism" that interest them in their games even when arrows are bouncing off of the barbarians bare chest as a dragon flies overhead. We all play the game in our own way. My question to you, is why do you care?
You seem awfully concerned about what other people want to do in their games. No one here is claiming that penalizing characters in heavy armor is the "only" way to play, or the "right" way. They just seem to be stating an interest. No one is forcing you to use this in your game and I'm pretty certain no one plans on kidnapping you and forcing you to play at their table by their rules...
As a final aside, because I'm not sure if I've actually said this yet in the thread, while I'm interested to see if the AP says anything on the subject I very much doubt I'll even penalize the heavy armor wearers regardless. I run what would very much be classified as a beer & pretzels game, we generally don't sweat this kind of thing unless I feel like it adds something interesting to the game. Just making that point because odd as it might be, despite everything I've said that seems to indicate heat + heavy armor is bad... I don't actually have a horse in this race, I'm just adding in some interesting discussion ppints... at least I think I am.
I never said people would be dropping like flies and putting words in my mouth or using hyperbole to make your point do you no favors. I simply stated a fact of living in the real world: if you over-exert yourself in extreme heat the consequences of doing so are not pleasant. And by the by, in controlled circumstances, i.e. not combat, the military does take the possibility of heat casualties very seriously and will try to adhere to the guidelines whenever possible.
So what you're saying here is that you acclimated, hydrated properly, and "took it easy" when it came to exerting yourself? Sounds an awful lot like following guidelines for being active in extreme heat, the kind of thing that won't see you end up a heat casualty.
And we all have anecdotes. Half my players were in the military at one point or another. One of them, just before he got out a few years back, had his unit sent to Louisiana for training exercises. His commander decided to ignore the guidelines for extreme heat because he apparently thought he was bad ass... so many soldiers in the unit got sidelined, approximately 40% of an entire battalion, as heat casualties the entire exercise had to be called off. See? We all have anecdotes.
Because some people like it. For some people trying to emphasize something like the oppressive heat of being active in a jungle is something they want to do with more than just words, some people want mechanics that will back that up. There's nothing wrong with people wanting to emphasize points of "realism" that interest them in their games even when arrows are bouncing off of the barbarians bare chest as a dragon flies overhead. We all play the game in our own way. My question to you, is why do you care?
You seem awfully concerned about what other people want to do in their games. No one here is claiming that penalizing characters in heavy armor is the "only" way to play, or the "right" way. They just seem to be stating an interest. No one is forcing you to use this in your game and I'm pretty certain no one plans on kidnapping you and forcing you to play at their table by their rules...
As a final aside, because I'm not sure if I've actually said this yet in the thread, while I'm interested to see if the AP says anything on the subject I very much doubt I'll even penalize the heavy armor wearers regardless. I run what would very much be classified as a beer & pretzels game, we generally don't sweat this kind of thing unless I feel like it adds something interesting to the game. Just making that point because odd as it might be, despite everything I've said that seems to indicate heat + heavy armor is bad... I don't actually have a horse in this race, I'm just adding in some interesting discussion ppints... at least I think I am.
Oofta
Legend
If I'm implying that heat exhaustion shouldn't be considered, that's not my intent. I'm also probably conflating this topic with other topics that are along the line of "how can we nerf people with heavy armor while ignoring how silly the barbarian concept is".
D&D is not particularly realistic. If I wanted to make it (slightly) more realistic, I'd cap bonuses to AC from dex to a +2 no matter what armor you're wearing and get rid of barbarians adding con modifier to AC altogether (perhaps give them more HP). Not sure what I'd do with monks because their AC bonus comes from their chi, a magical force.
I don't do any of those things to make D&D "more realistic" because I don't think it would add any value to the game. I don't see how it would add to the enjoyment of the game.
The same way I don't see how it adds to the enjoyment of the game to penalize people who wear (somewhat) more realistic armor. It discourages people from playing certain archetypes, but why is that a goal?
CapnZapp
Legend
Why not?
No I'm serious. That's my serious reply.
First you say realism doesn't matter since "arrows bounce on pecs" then you demand realism in the armor heat issue?
So again: why not?
Nobody is saying this must be included because otherwise the fully realistic game of D&D breaks down.
I'm just asking, cause in my view, it would be cool if there was a reason to not fight in full plate, or at least spend 50 gold on a potion or so.
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Oofta
Legend
I don't have a problem with barbarians. I also don't see a need to add extra penalties to heavy armor.
But why is it only ever the heavy armor wearer that pays the penalty for the sake of "realism"?
If we're modifying rules so that heavy armor is more "realistic" then why not add rules for not wearing armor being more realistic? I think it might make sense that if someone without armor does get hit the wounds they suffer would be more devastating and crippling. A lot of damage if wearing armor would be concussive bruising (which can, of course, kill) while if you don't dextrously dodge out of the way of that sword swing while in your skivvies you're liable to get your arm chopped off.
Would it be "fun" if I implemented a rule that anyone not wearing heavy armor that gets hit with a crit potentially suffers an enduring wound or is permanently maimed? It might be more realistic after all.
As always the caveat: do what you want in your games, this is just my opinion, blah, blah, blah.
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