D&D 5E Teleport /fly /misty step the bane of cool dungeon design is RAW in 5E

[DeJoker]

Unless you're reading a D&D novel, divine magic is rarely so powerful that anyone can just walk around performing obvious miracles wherever they go.

Boy your limitation on reading must be pretty severe because frankly there are numerous books (fiction) that have folks that can do obvious miracles -- further it was historically believed by the general populace that these religious folks could do miracles and they did do things that may have resembled miracles such as causing an alter to catch fire when calling upon their deity (yeah it was a sham but the general populace thought it was a real miracle as the priests wanted them to) then of course the other ones Caliban posted.

normal pseudo-Medieval European fantasy world

You do realize that is an oxymoron do you not as you cannot have a "normal" fantasy world -- you either have a normal world or you have a fantasy world you cannot have both.

That being said what you are actually saying is you cannot have a fantasy world that adheres to your particular view (as I believe you are the "some people" in this instance) of how it should be if you had priests running around doing obvious miracles and that would be correct but then that is completely out of scope of what was actually being discussed. So if you want to argue that your fantasy world is this way then you have absolutely no argument what so ever because what you do with your fantasy world is what you do with it end of story. Just do not expect everyone else to adhere to your limited view of what a fantasy world can look like.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Your "must be the case" assertion would only be true for a home brew campaign that had that as a premise. Not D&D in general.

Right, that's what I said. Given the premise, that must be the case. Not just for homebrew campaigns, but for any setting that used a similar premise.

"Actual historical Europe, except magic is real but it doesn't really change anything" was an incredibly common premise in the nineties. I could name half a dozen D&D heartbreakers that went in that direction, from Fantasy Imperium to Furry Pirates.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

That setting would also need arcane magic users to be exceptionally rare and/or they simply don't go around casting obvious spells. That exact same logic therefore requires wizards to be exactly as subtle as the divine casters to keep that setting. That means your supposed distinction between arcane and divine doesn't logically hold.

Not quite. Wizards aren't real, and have no real world analogue. We know what priests are like, so they have to fulfill that role - they have to exist as priests, and do priest things, which are fairly well documented. They have to exist, and have people know who they are, without actually changing the world too much.

Wizards are self-regulating. If anyone finds out that you're an arcane spellcaster, then you get burned at the stake, so you can't go around letting anyone see you use your magic.

 

[Caliban]

Right, that's what I said. Given the premise, that must be the case. Not just for homebrew campaigns, but for any setting that used a similar premise.

"Actual historical Europe, except magic is real but it doesn't really change anything" was an incredibly common premise in the nineties. I could name half a dozen D&D heartbreakers that went in that direction, from Fantasy Imperium to Furry Pirates.

But not for D&D (or AD&D) in general in 2nd edition (or even 1st edition), as you seemed be asserting initially. It certainly was not a premise for the flagship setting of Greyhawk that was published by TSR.

It may have been a premise for a bunch of 3rd party settings I've never heard of, but that's not what you were saying at first.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

But not for D&D (or AD&D) in general in 2nd edition (or even 1st edition), as you seemed be asserting initially. It certainly was not a premise for the flagship setting of Greyhawk that was published by TSR.

It may have been a premise for a bunch of 3rd party settings I've never heard of, but that's not what you were saying at first.

I'm saying that that's the kind of setting I played in, back in the AD&D days, and that the spell list supported it. You didn't have paladins teleporting around, or priests shooting lasers from their hands, at least until you got to very high levels (which we never did).

That's why it seems weird to have paladins teleporting around at low levels, now, which is the actual topic of this thread. Low level characters in 5E have access to a lot more powerful magical effects than they used to, and they get to high levels much more quickly, so there's less room to play around in those sorts of low-fantasy settings.

 

[Caliban]

I'm saying that that's the kind of setting I played in, back in the AD&D days, and that the spell list supported it. You didn't have paladins teleporting around, or priests shooting lasers from their hands, at least until you got to very high levels (which we never did).

That's why it seems weird to have paladins teleporting around at low levels, now, which is the actual topic of this thread. Low level characters in 5E have access to a lot more powerful magical effects than they used to, and they get to high levels much more quickly, so there's less room to play around in those sorts of low-fantasy settings.

*shrug* You were talking as if that was the setting everyone played in, and acted as if we were making things up when we claimed otherwise. If you are going to go off on a tangent like that, be courteous and include everyone else in on the parts of the conversation that took place inside your own head before you posted.

 

[DeJoker]

Your "must be the case" assertion would only be true for a home brew campaign that had that as a premise. Not D&D in general.

Right, that's what I said. Given the premise, that must be the case. Not just for homebrew campaigns, but for any setting that used a similar premise.
"Actual historical Europe, except magic is real but it doesn't really change anything" was an incredibly common premise in the nineties. I could name half a dozen D&D heartbreakers that went in that direction, from Fantasy Imperium to Furry Pirates.

Actually that is not true Saelorn if we go back and examine this when it got started you made no assertion that this applied to a Homebrew setting at all. In fact you asserted the opposite that it pertained to D&D as a whole per RAW although you never actually used the word RAW but you did imply it numerous times.

Post #83

What's wrong with teleporting paladins? People always complain that paladins do nothing with their spell slots but smite all the time. But when they use it for some mobility its somehow wrong?

Divine magic is supposed to be subtle and effects-oriented. Teleportation is really flashy, which is why it traditionally belongs to arcane casters.

This is where you got started on your slippery slope

Post #85

Divine magic seems inherently planar magic. If any thing should be traveling across the planes, it might as well be Divine magic. (Even healing and radiant energy are the Positive Plane.)
Arcane works fine with Teleporting, Gate, Plane Shift, and so on, but I see little reason to prevent Divine magic from doing the same things.

When a priest casts a spell, there should be some doubt as to whether there was any magical involved, or whether it was just a coincidence. When a priest cures a disease, it could be that they were channeling the magic of their deity, or it could be just a coincidence that they happened to get better. When a druid empowers some berries to provide nourishment, it could just be psycho-somatic. The same is true of calling a swarm of insects, or creating an earthquake. Even when they raise the dead, there's the chance that they weren't really dead after all. If you have faith, then you believe that it's magic, but there's always room for doubt.
Arcane magic is obviously magic. If someone creates a glowing bead which explodes into a huge fireball after it flies through the air, there's no faith required. Likewise when someone starts flying, or spontaneously grows to twice their normal size. That's definitely magic going on.
At least, that was a traditional distinction. It stopped holding true at about the point where clerics started shooting lasers from their hands, but it still explains why a teleporting paladin feels wrong to a lot of people.

Then you slipped a little further done the slope here

Post #100

How is there doubt about Flame Strike being a flashy spell? That's what we're talking about. Its a repeatable phenomeon performed by the cleric, its obvious magic, and its literally flashy because it produces flashing light.

Flame Strike is an outlier among divine magic. Most divine spells are supposed to be subtle, and produce effects that could reasonably be denied. Also, sometimes, it doesn't work if the empowering deity decides that it shouldn't. Clerics aren't wizards, and they don't actually have any power of their own.
Letting a paladin teleport around willy-nilly is not in keeping with the traditional appearance of a divine spellcaster. It doesn't fit.

Then a little bit further here, oh and still no reference to it applying only to your homebrew game

Post #104

Side note: 3.5 Spiritual Weapon spell needs just divine focus and specifies that it is making a weapon of pure force.

Yeah, the era of subtle divine magic was really in AD&D and earlier. Third edition marks a dramatic shift toward overt divine magic, which was finalized with 4E.

Here you slipped and fell because this statement about Spiritual Hammer was utterly false see the exerpt taken directly from the 1st Edition Players Handbook below (except for the formatting as it did not hold up when I posted it here) read the stuff in Red very carefully.

Spiritual Hammer (Invocation)
Level: 2
Range: 3"
Duration: 1 round/Level
Area of Effect: One opponent
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 5 segments
Saving Throw: Special
Explanation/Description: By calling upon his or her deity, the cleric casting a spiritual hammer spell brings into existence a field of force which is shaped vaguely like a hammer. This area of farce is hammer-sized, and as long as the cleric who invoked it concentrates upon the hammer, it will strike at any opponent within its range as desired by the cleric. The force area strikes as a magical weapon equal to one plus per 3 levels of experience of the spell caster for purposes of being able to strike creatures, although it has no magical plusses whatsoever "to hit", and the damage it causes when it scares a hit is exactly the same as a normal war hammer, i.e. 1-6 versus opponents of man-size or smaller, 1-4 upon larger opponents. Furthermore, the hammer strikes at exactly the same level as the cleric controlling it, just as if the cleric was personally wielding the weapon. As soon as the cleric ceases concentration, the spiritual hammer is dispelled. Note: If the cleric is behind an opponent, the force can strike from this position, thus gaining all bonuses for such an attack and negating defensive protections such as shield and dexterity. The material component of this spell is a normal war hammer which the cleric must hurl towards opponents whilst uttering a plea to his or her deity. The hammer disappears when the spell is cast.

Post #118 thru #120

Spiritual Hammer and Animate Dead cause things to move around, when usually they don't. They're exactly the sort of thing which are easy to fake. The same is true of Blade Barrier, possibly, I don't really remember that one.

None of this is true. Sorry.

None of it is not true. Sorry.

Which my post proves your last comment to be untrue because your comment about Spiritual Hammer in 1st Edition is completely false.
Thus **ka-sploosh** you fell completely into the deep end and have been fabricating and twisting your untruths every since.

 

[Yaarel]

I'm saying that that's the kind of setting I played in, back in the AD&D days, and that the spell list supported it. You didn't have paladins teleporting around, or priests shooting lasers from their hands, at least until you got to very high levels (which we never did).

That's why it seems weird to have paladins teleporting around at low levels, now, which is the actual topic of this thread. Low level characters in 5E have access to a lot more powerful magical effects than they used to, and they get to high levels much more quickly, so there's less room to play around in those sorts of low-fantasy settings.

If *all* spells were ‘tagged’ with ‘descriptors’ that identified their ‘theme’, their ‘domain’ (fire, wind, ether, force, charm, teleport, animal, plant, fate/luck/prescience, etcetera), it would be much easier for DMs to allow a character concept to access them. It would also be easier for the DM to ban a list of spells across levels, because the theme was inappropriate for the setting, maybe nonpsychic or nonelemental or nonnature or too flashy, or whatever.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

If *all* spells were ‘tagged’ with ‘descriptors’ that identified their ‘theme’, their ‘domain’ (fire, wind, ether, force, charm, teleport, animal, plant, fate/luck/prescience, etcetera), it would be much easier for DMs to allow a character concept to access them. It would also be easier for the DM to ban a list of spells across levels, because the theme was inappropriate for the setting, maybe nonpsychic or nonelemental or nonnature or too flashy, or whatever.

It couldn't hurt. It's too bad that that's the one part of 4E that didn't carry over to 5E.

 

[Lanefan]

If *all* spells were ‘tagged’ with ‘descriptors’ that identified their ‘theme’, their ‘domain’ (fire, wind, ether, force, charm, teleport, animal, plant, fate/luck/prescience, etcetera), it would be much easier for DMs to allow a character concept to access them. It would also be easier for the DM to ban a list of spells across levels, because the theme was inappropriate for the setting, maybe nonpsychic or nonelemental or nonnature or too flashy, or whatever.

Nothing stops a DM from doing this anyway. She just has to go through them spell by spell and decide what spells need changing, what have to come out completely, and what can stay roughly as-is.

I'm saying that that's the kind of setting I played in, back in the AD&D days, and that the spell list supported it.

Sounds like a homebrew variant of some sort, which is cool but doesn't speak to generalities very well.

You didn't have paladins teleporting around, or priests shooting lasers from their hands, at least until you got to very high levels (which we never did).

That's why it seems weird to have paladins teleporting around at low levels, now, which is the actual topic of this thread. Low level characters in 5E have access to a lot more powerful magical effects than they used to, and they get to high levels much more quickly, so there's less room to play around in those sorts of low-fantasy settings.

That's the key thing in this whole discussion: that what was once seen as high level or powerful (or unusual) magic is now in some cases much more commonplace and easy to access.

The answer may be to delay or drop some of these class features, but you'd need to compensate somehow or the Balance Police will be after you.

Lan-"or split the 5e Pally into two or more distinct and separate classes"-efan