D&D 5E What is the most powerful spell?

Nebulous

Legend
How do you all feel about Spike Growth at 2nd level? As DM I find it be such a pain the ass spell, completely neutralizing enemy movement for fear of massive damage. Furthermore, the spell RAW has no limit on how many enemies it can target. Say, you have an army of orcs marching through a canyon with spike stones cast, every single trooper will take (40 ft. diameter; 8 squares; 2d4 per 5 feet, so 16d4 damage per enemy crossing the terrain, say a row of 8 orcs is moving through the canyon, that's 16d4 damage x 8, that's 128d4 to wave ONE of orcs, and lets say in the squad they are five rows deep (40 orcs), so assuming all the orcs power through the spell, that's 128d4 damage per row x 5 rows = 640d4 damage to 40 orcs...and the spell is still going.

Maybe I have done the math wrong so please correct me if i did, that is fine, but that seems excessive for a 2nd level spell.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Yaarel

He Mage
@Stalker0 − continuing your earlier post

Death Ward to Excellent. True. The way 5e works being able to fight fully at 1 hp even when back from 0 hp, makes this a powerful spell.

Vampiric Touch 3 is noticeably better than the Less Useful Flame Blade 2. In comparison, Vampiric Touch would have to at least be Excellent at 2nd-level. As Less Useful as Flame Blade is, the damage seems appropriate to 2nd level albeit awkward to find a situation to cast it. The possibility of Vampiric Touch adding a modicum of healing actually makes it more useful.

Delayed Blast is at least as effective as using a 7th level spell slot to heighten the 3rd-level Fireball spell. Since, Fireball sets the standard for damage, it is hard to move it. Depending on how long the caster can delay it, this Setup deals more damage, and might allow a future action to even deal additional damage, simultaneously.

Using higher level spell slots for Fireball establishes the standard damage for each spell level:

3rd slot: 21.0 (8d6)
4th slot: 23.6 (9d6)
5th slot: 26.3 (1́0d6)
6th slot: 28.9 (11d6) − Fire Storm
7th slot: 31.5 (12d6) − Delayed Blast
8th slot: 34.1 (13d6)

Note, the damage of the first tier is much lower (such as Scorching Ray), and the last tier much higher (such as Meteor Swarm), than the standard damage of the mid tiers, corresponding to Fireball and other damage spells.

Teleport 7 is less effective because of its chance of errors. Even the worse than the damage is the possibility of ending up anywhere in the universe at some random location. Even if using a scry spell to link to the destination, it only counts as having been ‘viewed once’ and carries significant risk (53%!). It seems to me, the only time it is worthwhile to use the spell is if you already know the sigil for a pre-existing Teleportation Circle, or alternatively happen to be carrying a physical ‘associated object’ that came from that destination. Both of these options are highly situational.

Now the 5th-level spell Teleportation Circle 5, is already the game changer. And for the most part it is an even better spell than Teleport 7 because you can actually create your own Teleportation Circle, where you need it to be. That said, while it is cool that you can create your own permanent Teleportation Circle, its year-long casting requirement makes this aspect more of a lair spell. But you can still teleport to any Teleportation Circle whose sigil you know. Thus, the ability of Teleport 7 to use an ‘associated object’, despite it being highly situational, does offer some utility by expanding the number of possible destinations.

Planeshift 7 is an Excellent spell, show up *anywhere* in the multiverse with decent accuracy and without misshap.

The sense is, Teleport 7 is somewhere around 6th level, being less useful than 7th-level Planeshift and slightly more useful than 5th-level Teleportation Circle.

I moved Word of Recall 6 ‘up’ to the 5th slot as a Less Useful Setup. It is less useful than Teleportation Circle. For some reason, I assumed it used a *reaction* because its only purpose is as an emergence get-out-of-jail-free card in case of a TPK. But it requires a full action. It might even be a 4th slot. But for now, it might have some utility for expeditions into uncharted territory, to return conveniently enough.

That reminds me, probably all travel spells qualify to be in the Setup category, with the benefit happening ‘later’ after one arrives to where one needs to be. Planeshift moves to an Excellent Setup spell for the 7th slot.

Misty Step is a favorite spell of mine. It is a ‘flashy’ spell. Yet it seems unbroken for 2nd level. Because it can only happen once on a turn, for a slot, its effectiveness is more like the Shield 1 spell. Effective but only once.

The DMG homebrew Eladrin Elf can get Misty Step as a race feature, and no character optimizers are clamoring for it. It seems suitable alongside other 2nd slot spells such as Invisibility.

Regarding the complaint about it being too ‘flashy’ for the Paladin. This relates more to spell thematics. If I had my way, all Wizard spells would be organized thematically by ‘domain’ (not school). A Wizard would pick one or two or maybe three domains depending on Wizard tradition. Then the Wizard wuld use any spell slot including the highest level slot available for a known domain spell. However, only slots of lower than the highest level could be used to access spells of an unknown domain. 3e psionics did something like this, and I like the way it reinforces thematic flavor, while still allowing versatility. In the case of the Paladin, simply remove Misty Step from the spell list, unless it is clearly appropriate.

To be honest, Misty Step probably is thematically appropriate for the Fey-theme ‘Green Knight’ Ancients Paladin. This corresponds to some degree to the ’Faerie Knight’ of the reallife medieval world view, who kinda did do stuff like this.

Note, Fly lasts for upto an hour, thus is head-and-shoulders beyond Misty Step.

Creation 5 is normally a less useful spell. You admit a 5th slot for it seems a ‘bit steep’. Perhaps it could work at 3rd level? Even at times where it might have been useful, a high level slot for it prohibits its use. Any spell that can only gain benefit if the reallife player is ingenious, is its own kind of ‘highly situational’. Note spells like Prestidigitation and Minor Image are 0-level cantrips, and Phantasmal Force and Suggestion 2nd-level spells, that also benefit from ingenuity. It seems better to reward the player for being ingenious, rather than punish all players by inflating the spell level of ingenuity spells. That said, Major Image is 3rd level. Perhaps a small physical conjuration is roughly as useful as a gargantuan nonphysical apparition? Personally, I probably wouldnt cast the Creation spell, unless it was from a 2nd-level spell slot.

Warding Bond 2 to Good. Are you sure? Self-damage seems problematic, especially for a caster who rarely has hit points to spare. Or else, if a gishy Eldrich Knight is at the front lines and needs those hit points. How often have players in your campaign cast it?

Magic Mouth 2 to a 1st-level spell slot. I am happy to agree with you. But before moving it, note. Its power comes from being able to determine precisely when the mouth gets triggered, depending on any close range sound or sight. For example, put it Magic Mouth on your money purse or backpack, too scream if anyone other than you tries to open it. Put it on the door if camping underground to wake you if an intruder enters. And so on. It is one of those ingenuity spells. It seems better than the 1st-slot Alarm spell that cannot do these special kinds of activations.

That said, Programmed Illusion 6 approximates the utility of Magic Mouth. Altho Programmed Illusion can manifest a gargantuan illusion, the fact that it must be determined ahead of time, prevents it being used on-the-fly, thus hampers its use as an ingenuity spell. The preprogramming reduces the usefulness making the utility of an impressive image highly situational. For the moment, Programmed Illusion is a Setup spell at 3rd slot, comparable to Excellent Major Image, while Magic Mouth is at 2nd slot. At the worst, one could use Programmed Illusion as an action to activate instantly, thus equate to Major Image. But delaying the illusion until later might as well be an aspect of Major Image itself, since it is a low level utility. Thoughts on Magic Mouth and Programmed Illusion?
 
Last edited:

Yaarel

He Mage
It is something like this?



from the worst ... to the best!

Hideous Laughter 1
Irresistible Dance 6
Entangle 1
Web 2
Plant Growth 3
Spike Growth 2
 
Last edited:

Stalker0

Legend
@Stalker0 − continuing your earlier post

Vampiric Touch 3 is noticeably better than the Less Useful Flame Blade 2. In comparison, Vampiric Touch would have to at least be Excellent at 2nd-level. As Less Useful as Flame Blade is, the damage seems appropriate to 2nd level albeit awkward to find a situation to cast it. The possibility of Vampiric Touch adding a modicum of healing actually makes it more useful.

I would argue VT is not noticeably better than flame blade. It deals the same damage, but also has a much smaller duration (1 minute vs 10 minutes). Flame Blade also provides a light effect (though I would agree that's not an amazing effect, but every little bit helps). Necrotic vs Fire is probably a wash at the lower levels, I would say at higher levels necrotic is less commonly resisted so that would give VT an edge.

Also if we think about who casts these spells. A druid casting flame blade can afford to stay in melee with its hp and AC. An EK casting VT...the level of the EK at that level is too high for VT to be worth it. For a wizard casting VT, the wizard is putting himself in a lot of risk and relying on very unreliable healing to save them.

I think my ranking would be Less Useful 2nd level Flame Blade vs Excellent 2nd level Vampiric touch.

Delayed Blast is at least as effective as using a 7th level spell slot to heighten the 3rd-level Fireball spell. Since, Fireball sets the standard for damage, it is hard to move it. Depending on how long the caster can delay it, this Setup deals more damage, and might allow a future action to even deal additional damage, simultaneously.

I will agree with you to keep DBF as at 7th level spell, which sets up my case for Fire Storm to remain as a 7th level spell. FS does a little less damage but it has dramatically better area control of its effect. DBF also has the possibility of being turned against you. Further, in general cleric spells are expected to do less than Wizard spells in terms of raw damage. So I think both should remain at 7th level.

Teleport 7 is less effective because of its chance of errors. Now the 5th-level spell Teleportation Circle 5, is already the game changer. Planeshift 7 is an Excellent spell, show up *anywhere* in the multiverse with decent accuracy and without misshap. The sense is, Teleport 7 is somewhere around 6th level, being less useful than 7th-level Planeshift and slightly more useful than 5th-level Teleportation Circle. I moved Word of Recall 6 ‘up’ to the 5th slot as a Less Useful Setup. It is less useful than Teleportation Circle. For some reason, I assumed it used a *reaction* because its only purpose is as an emergence get-out-of-jail-free card in case of a TPK. But it requires a full action. It might even be a 4th slot. But for now, it might have some utility for expeditions into uncharted territory, to return conveniently enough.

Ultimately, its the precision of teleport that gives it its power. You cannot discount the power of arriving precisely where you want to, when you want to. Plane Shift is beast don't give me wrong, but its precision is very much under DM fiat. The DM can let you go where you want, or put you off course by a good bit should they choose to. With teleport, if you have the means, you go exactly where you want. Now its true it sometimes takes a little setup, but 13th level characters are crafty...and unlikely a teleport circle it only takes a single object to effectively have a "teleport circle" at your precise destination. So I think teleport and plane shift should both by 7th. I do think Plane Shift should be ranked higher on the 7th level tier...it is in many cases a better spell...but not so much better that teleport is trumped.

That said, I agree with you making Word of Recall 5th. Its a weaker teleportation circle, but as clerics tend to have weaker teleport effects I think it fits well there.

Misty Step is a favorite spell of mine.

My only argument is that fly does carry risks and requires concentration. But I think your argument holds weight, and I will agree with it to leave it as is.

Creation 5 is normally a less useful spell.

You convinced me here. The comparison to Major Image I think is a good one.

Warding Bond Self-damage seems problematic, especially for a caster who rarely has hit points to spare.

Clerics are not squishy by any stretch, and as the main class that can heal themselves they do in fact have the hit points to spare. The drawback is absolutely worth the sweet buff (+1 AC/+1 saves). And in a number of situations, taking pain away from the fighters in front will allow your entire party to take more pain. This also pairs well with the mass healing spells. Warding Bond is great! And yes my party uses it.

Magic Mouth 2 to a 1st-level spell slot.

You make some good points, ingenuity should not be discounted. I didn't have a strong need to move this spell so I would leave it as is. Programmed Illusion only takes an action, so you can get a very complex illusion setup very quickly. Again, probably a spell that doesn't look that strong at first glance until an ingenious player uses it, then you'll think its the strongest spell ever! Probably worth leaving it alone for now.
 

Stalker0

Legend
Also want to note a few of your "minor spells - should be replaced by skills" that I disagree with.

1) Blade Ward - This is not the strongest cantrip, but it has its uses. Where it shines is the classic "break down the door and charge scenario". If a party is about to go into a next room, its a snap to just cast the spell and move in. In the best case scenario, you get resistance to a whole lot of pain on the first round of a combat, for the price of...well...nothing because it was a cantrip.

2) Various Divinations (Augury/Divination/Contact Other Plane): The fundamental thing about divinations is that they can tell a player not only what they don't know...but what they "couldn't know". Divinations are a stable of the game, now whether they could use some spell rebalancing and tuning I would agree, but not a complete removal of skills.

3) Detect Thoughts: Honestly...I think Insight is already too strong of a skill in many tables. Players often use this as "complete lie detecting", and that is really strong. Further, Detect Thoughts has other uses even just detecting creatures around you. While I think many detect spells can be dropped for skill checks, this is not one of them.

I agree with the majority of the other ones.
 

Yaarel

He Mage
@Stalker0

In the Minor Spells, I created a new category called ‘DM Gives A Hint’, and moved those specific divination spells there, so they can be managed separately.

Re Detect Thoughts. Moreorless the Insight skill can do what this spell can do. Note, the 5e version of the spell cannot ‘detect creatures around you’. It can only target a creature that is within Close Range (30 feet), and the caster must be able to ‘see’ it. In other words, the caster must already know the creature is there and be looking right at it. This is normally true when using the Insight skill too, albeit the skill might be slightly better such as discerning something in the next room by the tone of someones voice, or so. The spell fails if the target has Intelligence 3 or lower. Possibly, the Insight skill might still work at the empathic emotional level of animals, but arguably, the Animal Handling skill should be used instead for creatures of Intelligence 3 or lower. So here the spell and the skill are the same. Both the spell and the skill can be used to discern ‘what is most on the mind at the moment’. With regard to going ‘deeper’ to empathize with the emotional state and motivations of the target, the Insight skill is roughly the same as the Detect Thoughts spell. Where the skill requires a skill check, the spell grants a save, so both require a success on a d20 roll. The skill is better because the skillster can do the discernment discretely, while the spell is intrusive, and the target automatically knows if the caster probing around in the targets mind. Heh, regarding the skill, the target of Insight could likewise make an Insight check on the skillster to discern if the skillster is trying to make Insight attempts to analyze it. The spell grants no special features to detect lies. By contrast, an attempt to lie requires a Deception skill check, and the Insight skill is required to discover the lie and penetrate it. Good or bad, that is the rules as written for the Insight skill. In this sense the Insight skill is strictly better than the Detect Thoughts spell. In all cases, the spell is either redundant with the skill or inferior to the skill.

In the comparison between the Insight skill and the Detect Thoughts spell, it seems the skill is strictly better.



The things in the ‘Perhaps Skill Check’ category are intended to be ‘perhaps’. Their status is debatable. But what these Minor Spells offer is so close to what skills can do, that the skills must be taken into account before deciding what to do with these minor spells.

So for example, Blade Ward is comparable to what the Dodge or Charge combat action can do. Technically, a combat action isnt a skill, but hypothetically could involve a skill check. Charge might involve an Athletics skill check, Dodge might involve an Acrobatics skill check, depending on what the DM has in mind while adjudicating a particular narrative.

Personally, I am less a fan of Blade Ward. Cantrips are precious resource. A caster only knows a few, chooses them for life, and cannot access unknown cantrips. Because the other cantrips are so much better, Blade Ward fails to compete as a Cantrip. But its relative position among Minor Spells might move ‘lower’. Its utility seems to be something like, ‘I am ready for absolutely anything that might hurt me, whatever it might be’. In that sense, it could be a combat action, sorta like a fighting stance? As an action it could be called ‘Ready For Anything’, or ‘On Guard’.



As an aside, I am thinking of renaming the ‘Less Useful’ category as ‘Marginal’, ‘Cusp’, or ‘Threshold’. The idea is, the less useful spells, in the sense of being highly situational, are now in the Setup category. So the stuff that remains in the Less Useful category is probably too powerful for the next lower level, but not power enough relative to the spells in the same level, and thus are somewhere in between on the cusp.



All the spells in this thread rank depending on how good they are compared to other spells. It doesnt really matter which class is casting it. To help ensure a single standard metric to evaluate all of them, the Wizard class is considered the reference point, and is casting all of them. (Imagine there is a Thaumaturge tradition that accesses healing spells, similar to the way the Divine Soul of the Sorcerer class does.)

The category of the Eldritch Knight is a special case for spell that involve weapon attacks and melee range. A Wizard would normally avoid the spells in this category. However, an Eldritch Knight can prefer them, so for it, may be excellent. Also, some players who are skilled at character optimization might build a gishy Wizard that is finds more use for Eldritch Knight spells, perhaps building a Bladesinger tradition. Heh, so the Eldritch Knight category is sort of like a hiccup at each spell level, in the continuum from worst to best.



When evaluating a spell like Warding Bond, a Wizard is likely to avoid it because of the self-damage. But an Eldrich Knight with lots of hit points might employ it well. So the spell works well in this category. As an Eldrich Knight, looking at the Eldritch Knight category, which spells would you probably prefer over Warding Bond, and over which would you probably prefer Warding Bond? I have never seen Warding Bond chosen by a player, but your group seems to get alot of mileage out of it. I am thinking it is a ‘Not Bad’ choice for an Eldrich Knight spell?
 
Last edited:

snickersnax

Explorer
@Stalker0
In the comparison between the Insight skill and the Detect Thoughts spell, it seems the skill is strictly better. So, it might make sense to move the spell from the ‘Perhaps Skill Check’ category to the ‘Skill Check’ category?

So I disagree that an insight check is the same or better than detect thoughts.

Consider the following situation. The party has captured a bad guy and they are interrogating him.

" Where is the hidden treasure?'

Now detect thoughts is probably going to give you the truthful answer regardless of what the person says or even if he doesn't say anything with no chance of failure. An insight check on the other hand will only help if the person responds and you now get a chance to determine if he is lying or not. If he is lying, you haven't gotten much closer to the finding the answer to your question, other than giving you another opportunity to continue the interrogation. Perhaps if the treasure is hidden nearby a generous DM would allow the interrogator to notice some body language clue.

Another scenario: the insight checker vs detect thoughts caster are playing a hand of poker. Detect thoughts is so much better. no skill check required.

@Stalker0Note, the 5e version of the spell cannot ‘detect creatures around you’. It can only target a creature that is within Close Range (30 feet), and the caster must be able to ‘see’ it. In other words, the caster must already know the creature is there and be looking right at it.

I'm not sure what PHB you're reading, but mine says "You can also use this spell to detect the presence of thinking creatures you can’t see. When you cast thespell or as your action during the duration, you can search for thoughts within 30 feet of you." PHB p 232
 

Yaarel

He Mage
I think my ranking would be Less Useful 2nd level Flame Blade vs Excellent 2nd level Vampiric touch.
Flame Blade and Vampiric Touch. Done.



I will agree with you to keep DBF as at 7th level spell, which sets up my case for Fire Storm to remain as a 7th level spell.

Fire Storm seems exactly what a 6th-level spell should be. It does the proper amount of damage, on average, as determined by heightening the Fireball spell to a 6th-level slot. At the same time, Fire Storm offers some additionally utility making it worthwhile to learn and prepare this higher level spell, in addition to the 3rd-level Fireball spell.

Delayed Blast does the proper amount of damage for a 7th-level slot. Then additionally it adds the utility of making it possible to layer massive damage in a single round. But perhaps I overestimated its utility. The layering of the damage is difficult to achieve. For example, if casting it before entering the room of a Big Bad, the caster must make a Dexterity save to throw it into the room, or else it explodes in the casters face. Moreover the layered damage comes at the price of delaying the benefit until later, so hostiles have more time to respond. The layers cost additional resources to deal damage that would have been done anyway. There is a risk that the hostile can throw it back at the caster. For now, its still in the 7th-level slot because it can at least do the Fireball damage for that, but might belong better as one of the Less Useful Setup spells?



Ultimately, its the precision of teleport that gives it its power. You cannot discount the power of arriving precisely where you want to, when you want to. ... Now its true it sometimes takes a little setup, ... it only takes a single object to effectively have a "teleport circle" at your precise destination.

Alright, tentatively, Teleport moves to the 7th slot, in the Setup category. But it is Less Useful because of the significant requirement of a destination object. Meanwhile Planeshift is Excellent there. I remain unsure that the possibility of a destination object makes Teleport worth two slots higher than Teleportation Circle. But it is there for now.



The comparison to Major Image I think is a good one.
Creation moves to 3rd-level relating to some degree to Major Image, is a Setup because of its long casting, and is Less Useful, heh, because it is difficult to think of a good use for it.
 

Yaarel

He Mage
I'm not sure what PHB you're reading, but mine says "You can also use this spell to detect the presence of thinking creatures you can’t see. When you cast thespell or as your action during the duration, you can search for thoughts within 30 feet of you." PHB p 232

Thanks for pointing that out. The data base is missing the paragraphs about interrogation (less important), and detecting unseen minds (important). I have corrected the entry now.

Ok. So, detecting unseen minds moves from Insight skill into telepathic ability. This factor seems notable.

So I disagree that an insight check is the same or better than detect thoughts.

Consider the following situation. The party has captured a bad guy and they are interrogating him.

"Where is the hidden treasure?"

Now detect thoughts is probably going to give you the truthful answer regardless of what the person says or even if he doesn't say anything with no chance of failure. An insight check on the other hand will only help if the person responds and you now get a chance to determine if he is lying or not. If he is lying, you haven't gotten much closer to the finding the answer to your question, other than giving you another opportunity to continue the interrogation. Perhaps if the treasure is hidden nearby a generous DM would allow the interrogator to notice some body language clue.

On the one hand, the interrogated target knows its mind is being probed, and will intentionally try to suppress surface thoughts about the hidden information. (It reminds of the scene from Village of the Damned, where the protagonist plants a bomb to kill telepathic children. The children probe his mind while he resists, and they dont penetrate to the truth until it is too late.) ‘Surface thoughts’ can be lies, attempts to use the Deception skill.

Meanwhile, the Insight skill can be used to discern specific details of information (at a higher DC). Just as in reallife ‘cold reading’, you run into someone who perhaps glances oddly at your money pouch, or oppositely, seems to avoid glancing at the direction of the pouch, or any other of a number of clues about intention that usually remain unconscious.



Another scenario: the insight checker vs detect thoughts caster are playing a hand of poker. Detect thoughts is so much better. No skill check required.

Since the poker player automatically knows the mind is being probed, the player will probably make a Deception check to bluff.

Meanwhile, Insight can be used to pierce a bluff, and possibly even to discern if the player has a good hand or bad.



Now, the detect unseen thinkers is a factor I havent taken into account yet, so let me think on that. But, it requires an action on each turn to scan this way, so it would rarely happen. One would have to already suspect an invisible creature is nearby to cast the spell for this purpose − in which case the action might have gone toward a better use.
So, this telepathic usage seems situational.

In any case, I am moving the Detect Thought to the ‘Perhaps Skill Check’ category. Even here, the ‘feeling that someone is looking at you’, might come under the Insight skill check.

Perhaps, skills can also be design space for certain extraordinary effects.

In any case, even there was an invisible creature within Close range, a normal Passive Perception DC would often detect it. And if suspected, an active Perception skill check could achieve a high d20 roll plus possible bonus and advantage from help to detect it.

Even corner cases of the Detect Thoughts spell seem within the realm of skills.



[edit]

One might argue that in the case of ‘surface thoughts’, the caster is spending a spell slot, instead of rolling an Insight skill check. But 5e seems to frown on this approach. Compare the spell that unlocks a door (Knock) versus a Sleight of Hand skill check to do the same thing. 5e wants the skillster to be special, and for spells to be unable to replace the skillster. So the Knock spell comes with an inconvenient loud gong, to make sure that the skill is better than the spell.

The same should probably be true for social skills too. The skillster who invests in social skills should be special. A spell should be less good. Otherwise, spells would obsolete these skills.

So, in a case where a spell and one or more skills seem redundant, probably, the gaming design should privilege the skill and delete the spell.
 
Last edited:

Yaarel

He Mage
Heh, I kinda want to keep these together, because they are comparable issues.

Animal Friendship spell − Animal Handling skill check − target has Intelligence 3 or lower
Detect Thoughts spell − Insight skill check − target has Intelligence 4 or higher
 
Last edited:

Remove ads

Top