D&D 5E Forget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

[pming]

Hiya!

Hey there,

we are currently at the very end of the campaign "Princes of the Apocalypse". Our characters are level 13 and we have dozens of thousands of gold, but we don't know on what to spend our money. The treasure system is broken. Prices are even more broken. Gold is worth nothing, if you can't by anything useful for that. The only way to get rid of gold is, if your DM finds a way to "burn it all for some hypocritical reason" like offering you a Castle for an insane, unplausible amount of gold. If you don't believe me, read Angry GM's article.

Read the article above (ok, "heavily skimmed", probably read 75% of it). And I have to say...I disagree with just about everything he said or claimed as "proof" or "how to fix". The gist of his rant, from what I read, is this: I can't spend money to buy magic items so I can kill stuff better to get more gold to buy more magic items. 5e D&D isn't anything like computer rpg's!

How do I "fix" this problem? I don't because it ISN'T a problem. How often to my player open the PHB to look for stuff to buy? EVERY. SINGLE. SESSION. They look to buy better stuff, more stuff, different stuff, etc. How else do they spend money? Like any other person who has money to spend; on stuff they want. It's not my job as a DM to give players something to spend money on. It's the players job to tell me what they want to obtain. It's then my job to figure out how much, how easy, and how appropriate it is to my campaign (See my note at the bottom regarding how WotC can help DM's do this).


Me(DM): Ok, you all awake in your private rooms after a luxurious night at the Queens Choice Inn. What do you do?

Player: I still have about 30k in GP's! Hmmm...can I buy a better quality warhorse? With barding?

Me: If you can find one, yeah, why not?

Player: Ok. I do that!

Me: Er...how do you do that? Just walk up to the barkeep and say 'hey, where can I buy a high quality warhorse with barding?', or what?

Player: Um...I'll ask around for who sells or might sell warhorses.

Me: Allright then. After asking the barkeep about warhorses, he points you to the nearby town of Signpost. Supposed to be a really good horse breeder and trainer out there.


...POOF! The player is now spending his 30k the way he wants. You don't need a list of magic items. You don't need a list of, well, much of anything. The PHB has enough rough prices for enough things that any DM worth his/her salt will be able to extrapolate costs for anything he/she needs. If not, there are a MULTITUDE of RPG books out there dealing with 'equipment' (from shoes to flying castles).

Bottom line: It's NOT a complete* failing on the DMG's part...it's most likely a complete failing on his DM and/or Players ability to use their imaginations.

NOTE:
*'complete'...meaning WotC needs to stop focusing on more feats, spells, archtypes, races, etc....and at least toss a few crumbs to the DM's out there to help them run/develop their campaigns with rules for building castles, inns, houses, owning/operating a mine, purchasing a title, clearing wilderness, hiring men-at-arms and hirelings, etc.
^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[lkwpeter]

I think, there is some misinterpretation of "the problem":

It's not that I am complaining about where and how to spend my money. Actually, this complaint was just the thread opener.

Understanding the problem: I was quite surprised reading replies that stated that there wasn't a problem because "you could use gold to hire different kind of groups for adventuring stuff like investigation or just for roleplay" or "there are homebrew systems that could give money a purpose" (buying magic items is not intended by RAW). In both cases, people told me how they dealt with the problem and sold it as if there were no problem. It's like denying that there is a lack of infracstructure for blind people in urban areas with the answer that "blind people could buy themselves a guide dog". The problem is NOT not to have a guide dog. The problem is the lack of infrastructure. Unfortunately, this is something some people don't get.

My thesis was that there is a huge mismatch between the income of adventurers (3.2 million gold) and the possibilities to spend it (trivial costs, etc.). Therefore, it's unnecessary that 5E provides dozens of tables to make the DM believe, he needs to be careful giving away treasure to the adventurers, although there is nothing to spend it on. To point this out: A DM could also reward his party with 10 million gold per encounter without spending a minute on thinking about it. It would have the same effect. The party wouldn't be able to spend most of it (besides those trivial adventuring costs). Of course, a DM can always implement some mechanics for "burning money" like Strongholds, Castles, etc. But this is already intervention and misses the point. And that leads me to the supposition that the system is broken, because it shouldn't rely on such intervention.

 

[Yaarel]

Understanding the problem: I was quite surprised reading replies that stated that there wasn't a problem because "you could use it to hire different kind of groups for adventuring stuff like investigation or just for roleplay" or "there are homebrew systems that could give money a purpose" (buying items is not intended by RAW). In both cases, people told me how they dealt with the problem and sold it as if there were no problem. It's like denying that there is a lack of infracstructure for blind people in urban areas with the answer that "blind people could buy themselves a guide dog". The problem is NOT not to have a guide dog. The problem is the lack of infrastructure. Unfortunately, this is something some people don't get.

In 4e and earlier, we referred to this fallacy by the name of a poster who championed it as a problem, the ‘Oberoni Fallacy’. Also, called the ‘Rule 0 Fallacy’.

The fallacy is: A ‘Rule 0’ house rule can fix a flaw in the rules, therefore there is no flaw in the rules.

In this case, it would be as if saying, the DM can easily ignore the entire monetary treasure system, therefore the monetary treasure system has no flaw.



... But it is nice to know, the DM can *completely* remove the item prices and treasure tables, and the game works even better.

Remove the wealth-by-level tables. The best and simplest solution is to decouple character advancement from any gp expectation. The gp is for flavor only.

What does matter is which and how many magic items the DM decides to make available. As a rule of thumb, maybe at most have one magic item that seems appropriate for the current level, and one to three minor items that are less powerful than that. If a player has a favorite item, try figure out ways to upgrade it to the current level on occasion.

 

[Yaarel]

NOTE:
*'complete'...meaning WotC needs to stop focusing on more feats, spells, archtypes, races, etc....and at least toss a few crumbs to the DM's out there to help them run/develop their campaigns with rules for building castles, inns, houses, owning/operating a mine, purchasing a title, clearing wilderness, hiring men-at-arms and hirelings, etc.

Heh, theres a spell for that.

You can move massive amounts of earth, including displacing trees in it to a new location. Build massive impenetrable fortresses out of solid rock with Wall of Stone. Create lavish gardens with Plant Growth or Hallucinatory Terrain.

But any self-respecting fortress owner would probably want ones own demiplane, anyway.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Bottom line: It's NOT a complete* failing on the DMG's part...it's most likely a complete failing on his DM and/or Players ability to use their imaginations.

That's incredible valuable input, and just what this thread is all about! THANK YOU!

 

[Rya.Reisender]

For some reason I feel the currency system is really only there for realism. Would save a lot of trouble if money was removed completely from the game. And treasure chests only contain better equip / magic items / spell ingredients instead.

Then my players would also stop trying to loot every single item just to be disappointed later that they can't do much for the gold.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Remove the wealth-by-level tables. The best and simplest solution is to decouple character advancement from any gp expectation. The gp is for flavor only.

I agree with your entire post except this. Doing what you suggest removes loot as a motivator for adventurering, which has been part of the game for all editions of the game ('cept 2E, I think).

 

[CapnZapp]

I prefer 'succinct summary'. I think WotC made a pretty good case for why there isn't a comprehensive and extensive mercantile system associated with the base game. There are plenty of folks who have put forth third-party systems for valuation systems.

The argument, "I can't spend my money! Gold is useless!" is symptomatic of lazy gaming, IMHO. There's always a use for money and it's up to everyone, players and DMs, to say how they use, store and protect their wealth. Do the clerics tithe? Does anyone invest in mercantile endeavors? How about taxation for the king who is waging yet another war and is in need of coin? Apparently no one has a family they can assist. Etc.

No, you don't get away with utterly dismissing the desires of others just because you don't agree.

First off, let's put something straight. The only good use of the "valuation system" in the DMG is for people like you to claim the game has one. Otherwise, it's utterly rubbish, as this very thread attests.

Thus, when you claim "plenty of folks have put forth third-party systems for valuation systems" that's another willfully blatant misrepresentation - you know anything as vague or haphazardous as the DMs rarity system is useless for the purposes of the OP and this thread.

Furthermore there is exactly one (1) third-party system that I know of that meets the basic quality criteria discussed here and that is the "Sane prices" effort (and the thread has so far not found any more).

Now then, the way you muck in the faces of everybody complaining gold is useless. The game used to provide an outlet for people playing official supplements in the official manner, that is, with little or no downtime, and with the official DMG gold amounts. It was not perfect, but it allowed PCs to convert their gold into advantages during the continued adventure.

Now it doesn't. And it does not offer anything in its place. The gold just sits there.

Now tell me exactly why the withdrawal of a great feature is somehow not something we are allowed to take WotC to task for, and do explain why players are "lazy" for not wanting to take on this herculean task by themselves (the fact that nobody has offered a comparable 3PP system does suggest it is a very large work)?

So in summary: everything you have said so far is provably wrong, and your every argument boils down to simple insults of people having the temerity to point out how your perfect edition is still lacking in key areas, even three years after release.

Have a nice day.

 

[Ancalagon]

Weeeeellll....

I think some of the "tension" in these arguments is that because there is a strong hint - if not outright said - desire to see a return of the 3.x/pathfinder (4e? I have no idea) system of having PCs get a la carte magical equipment sets perfectly tailored for their PC builds. So the "there is nothing for us to buy!!!" means, for some (not all!) "let us buy magical items!!"

Having just designed a 7th level character for an upcoming Pathfinder campaign I just joined, let me just say I'm glad that 5e left that behind!

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Weeeeellll....

I think some of the "tension" in these arguments is that because there is a strong hint - if not outright said - desire to see a return of the 3.x/pathfinder (4e? I have no idea) system of having PCs get a la carte magical equipment sets perfectly tailored for their PC builds. So the "there is nothing for us to buy!!!" means, for some (not all!) "let us buy magical items!!"

You may be right to a certain degree. Personally, I would like loot to improve the PC. It's a prime motivation for loot hunting, and is satisfying for many groups and has been part of the game for basically all editions. Plus, it actually gives meaning to treasure given in the official adventures so far. If some groups don't like it, or prefer sinking money into orphanages, tithes, taxes, horse farms, armor polish or whatever, more power to 'em and they can just ignore the 'shopping list'. But all the groups looking for an experience from earlier editions - or who just wants treasure to mean something - are left hanging.