D&D 5E Forget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

[Warmaster Horus]

No, you don't get away with utterly dismissing the desires of others just because you don't agree.
...

Obviously we're playing different games, then. There's an expectation of currency in D&D and always has been. Originally you counted treasure as experience, even. The computer-game-RPG-effect came in hard with 3e where you were expected to till your treasure into more baubles to enhance your character and such items were nigh required to be effective at higher levels. I think this followed in 4e (the edition I took off) and it's impact continues today because of that history.

However 5e cleaned up this model by trying to trim the necessity of 'powerups' with mechanics like attunement, scaling class abilities and the recommendation that the magic item section of the DMG was for loot an not necessarily an Amazon.com wishlist for gp. My conclusion after reviewing comments by various WotC designers is that this has been a conscious effort due to player feedback.

This does leave an issue of what to do with currency. It has to be there because D&D has always had gold. The divide in this thread seems to be that of gold having a game-mechanic impact vs a story impact. Frankly there can be both. Pushing that decision to the DM makes sense to me because it seems like a foundational element you would set in a campaign. I'd recommend products like Adventurer, Conqueror, King and stuff out of older D&D editions like the Stronghold Builder's Guide to a DM who wants more options because gold is somewhat version-agnostic.

As for being 'proven' wrong. Whatever. There is something to the need for what do when not adventuring as we've seen with UA's (and soon to be XGtE) downtime activities, which include the use of gold and I'm glad it's coming. I don't think it's necessary because a DM can come up with the same stuff that's tailored to their game, but it doesn't hurt.

 

[CapnZapp]

I think, there is some misinterpretation of "the problem":

It's not that I am complaining about where and how to spend my money. Actually, this complaint was just the thread opener.

Understanding the problem: I was quite surprised reading replies that stated that there wasn't a problem because "you could use gold to hire different kind of groups for adventuring stuff like investigation or just for roleplay" or "there are homebrew systems that could give money a purpose" (buying magic items is not intended by RAW). In both cases, people told me how they dealt with the problem and sold it as if there were no problem. It's like denying that there is a lack of infracstructure for blind people in urban areas with the answer that "blind people could buy themselves a guide dog". The problem is NOT not to have a guide dog. The problem is the lack of infrastructure. Unfortunately, this is something some people don't get.

Unfortunately my time here has convinced me this is not a matter of understanding.

Instead some people absolutely freak out over the slimmest possibility the game we all love is not perfect and unblemished in every last detail.

So it's a matter of wilful denial. They must tell us there is no problem "just buy a guide dog" because otherwise they would have to accept their game has weaknesses.

Why? I have no clue.

Myself, the more a game is worthy of my attention the more I talk about its faults. (If a game doesn't interest me, I don't care about its flaws)

That 5th edition can both be the greatest edition of Dungeons & Dragons and be not-perfect at the same time is completely understandable, at least to me.


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[CapnZapp]

Obviously we're playing different games, then. There's an expectation of currency in D&D and always has been. Originally you counted treasure as experience, even. The computer-game-RPG-effect came in hard with 3e where you were expected to till your treasure into more baubles to enhance your character and such items were nigh required to be effective at higher levels. I think this followed in 4e (the edition I took off) and it's impact continues today because of that history.

However 5e cleaned up this model by trying to trim the necessity of 'powerups' with mechanics like attunement, scaling class abilities and the recommendation that the magic item section of the DMG was for loot an not necessarily an Amazon.com wishlist for gp. My conclusion after reviewing comments by various WotC designers is that this has been a conscious effort due to player feedback.

This does leave an issue of what to do with currency. It has to be there because D&D has always had gold. The divide in this thread seems to be that of gold having a game-mechanic impact vs a story impact. Frankly there can be both. Pushing that decision to the DM makes sense to me because it seems like a foundational element you would set in a campaign. I'd recommend products like Adventurer, Conqueror, King and stuff out of older D&D editions like the Stronghold Builder's Guide to a DM who wants more options because gold is somewhat version-agnostic.

As for being 'proven' wrong. Whatever. There is something to the need for what do when not adventuring as we've seen with UA's (and soon to be XGtE) downtime activities, which include the use of gold and I'm glad it's coming. I don't think it's necessary because a DM can come up with the same stuff that's tailored to their game, but it doesn't hurt.

Know what?

Thank you for this very reasonable post. Now you make me look bad.

Do have a nice day.



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[Matrix Sorcica]

Thank you for this very reasonable post.

I agree.

 

[pming]

Hiya.

Hmmm...ok, perhaps in stead of rules for buying magic items, there was a "training" rule/system for downtime? Where a PC could seek out a tutor, ancient master, renowned school, etc and simply pay X number of gp's to get Y number of XP in Z number of (time-factor)? It could be relatively simple, like having the training be divided into quality; Poor, Average, Good, Excellent, where you would have a ratio of Gold to XP to Time. That way the DM still gets to control the level of "magic" in his/her world, and players now have a trade off of either taking game-time and spending gold to get some more XP, or using that gold to buy a keep/warhorse/ship/whatever.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Nevvur]

Weeeeellll....

I think some of the "tension" in these arguments is that because there is a strong hint - if not outright said - desire to see a return of the 3.x/pathfinder (4e? I have no idea) system of having PCs get a la carte magical equipment sets perfectly tailored for their PC builds. So the "there is nothing for us to buy!!!" means, for some (not all!) "let us buy magical items!!"

Having just designed a 7th level character for an upcoming Pathfinder campaign I just joined, let me just say I'm glad that 5e left that behind!

Ya, there does seem to be some nostalgia behind the complaints. Every edition needs to be treated as its own system, even when the developers cast it as being inspired by various elements of its predecessors. A dynamic, wealth-based upgrade track didn't survive into this incarnation. As far as I'm concerned, that's a development choice, not a failure of the system. Might as well take Savage Worlds to task for not having a nitty-gritty combat system.

I don't say this to disparage those who find 5e's loot systems insufficient for their style of play. I hope they find a solution that works for them, but I think the chances of WotC releasing official guidance on this matter are slim to nil, even if people get vocal about it. We've seen other parts of the game receive greater negative criticism and remain unchanged.

If we, the players, were to design a formal system for wealth distribution, the difficulty I would have in using it would be context. One of the most baffling suggestions I've read so far is to link the amount of wealth acquired to encounter XP. Does a tribe of 14 goblins have the same amount of wealth as a werewolf? Does an ogre who ambushes travelers on a minor trade road have the same wealth as one who lives far beyond the outer limits of civilization? These are the kinds of questions that suggest to me why the developers didn't create a detailed system.

In any case, arguing whether the exclusion of said system constitutes a failure by WotC isn't productive, so if you want a fix, you should continue (start?) to work on an actual fix and just ignore the system's defenders - including me, per the first paragraph in this post.

In the interest of contributing something productive to the thread, may I suggest "specialized training" as an alternative to purchasing magic items as a wealth-based upgrade track? I feel that Ye Olde Magic Shoppe is a very short road to the DM losing control of encounter design. Keep the perks small and the costs high, e.g. 5000 GP can buy a wizard an additional 1st level spell slot, or grant the fighter +1 (non-magical) damage to her melee attacks. Maybe set level requirements? Whatever form the training takes may require some imagination by the DM and player, and probably a good chunk of downtime. But then, I've always felt that PCs advance way too quickly in chronological terms, so a good chunk of downtime might be in order.

 

[Nevvur]

Hiya.

Hmmm...ok, perhaps in stead of rules for buying magic items, there was a "training" rule/system for downtime? Where a PC could seek out a tutor, ancient master, renowned school, etc and simply pay X number of gp's to get Y number of XP in Z number of (time-factor)? It could be relatively simple, like having the training be divided into quality; Poor, Average, Good, Excellent, where you would have a ratio of Gold to XP to Time. That way the DM still gets to control the level of "magic" in his/her world, and players now have a trade off of either taking game-time and spending gold to get some more XP, or using that gold to buy a keep/warhorse/ship/whatever.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

lol, seems we were writing the same idea at about the same time.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

I agree.

Appreciated!

 

[Ancalagon]

An amusing thought is "why do the bad guys have so much cash? Why was so much gold left in this tomb?"

.... maybe they didn't have something to spend it on either?

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[Matrix Sorcica]

In the interest of contributing something productive to the thread, may I suggest "specialized training" as an alternative to purchasing magic items as a wealth-based upgrade track? I feel that Ye Olde Magic Shoppe is a very short road to the DM losing control of encounter design. Keep the perks small and the costs high, e.g. 5000 GP can buy a wizard an additional 1st level spell slot, or grant the fighter +1 (non-magical) damage to her melee attacks. Maybe set level requirements? Whatever form the training takes may require some imagination by the DM and player, and probably a good chunk of downtime. But then, I've always felt that PCs advance way too quickly in chronological terms, so a good chunk of downtime might be in order.

Thank you for a constructive post.
While I like this idea, isn't it just another way of using gold to upgrade, a la magic items? And one would have to devise prices for all the possible upgrades anyway. Which leads to the need for a pricing system that WotC should have provided (i.e. prices for magic items etc.).