D&D 5E Point Buy vs Rolling for Stats

[Hriston]

AD&D did that, but I think I prefer 3e's method. Subtracting the 5 from 10 or 11 and rolling 3d6-5/6 allowed for the genius ogre with the 12 or 13 intelligence. That seems more realistic to me.

More realistic for every race of monsters to have a 16-point range that follows the same distribution curve in every ability? I thought you liked variety!

Unless you roll for the commoners like the rules say you can.

Of course you can do that, but I don't see any rules for that. Are you referring to the "Using Classes and Levels" option from p. 92 of the DMG? I'm pretty sure that only applies if you're giving the NPC classes and levels, which isn't what I mean by a commoner.

 

[Maxperson]

Of course you can do that, but I don't see any rules for that. Are you referring to the "Using Classes and Levels" option from p. 92 of the DMG? I'm pretty sure that only applies if you're giving the NPC classes and levels, which isn't what I mean by a commoner.

Nope. Class levels aren't even remotely required to roll stats for NPCs in 5e. Page 89 says that NPC doesn't need combat statistics. Not needing them means that they can have them by the rules if the DM wants. If they couldn't, they would not have bothered to say that. Page 89 also says you don't need to roll stats, which means that you can roll stats if you want to. Page 92 under NPC statistics(before you get to classes and levels) says "When you give NPCs statistics, you have three main options...". Only one of which involves classes and levels. That means that every Tom, Dick and Commoner can have rolled stats by the 5e rules.

 

[RoyalEF]

The great thing about point buy is that it guarantees all the characters are equivalent. Obviously, they are being "generous" to themselves. Maybe they are rolling 5d6 dropping two or i've seen 6 rolls of 4d6, drop lowest die AND lowest score. This why tournaments and public game groups use point buy. Because people cheat and lie. Period. Don't think twice about only using point buy.

 

[Hussar]

See, when I pull back a bit and try to get a bit of perspective, I look at it this way. What are the strengths of each system?

Die Rolling: A way to randomize character stats such that it makes some reach towards realism. How far a reach we can obviously argue about, but, that appears to be the primary strength of the system.

Point Buy: A more controlled system where no given character is created, out of the game that is stronger, or weaker than any other character. How much stronger or weaker we get with die rolling vs point buy we can actually measure. +2 to any given stat is worth an ASI. An ASI is equal to a feat. Thus, any +2 to any given stat is equal to one feat, for each +2 over the baseline 27 point buy. Thus, a character with a 17 in the highest stat and a 10 in the lowest is equivalent to having 2 feats at the outset.

To me, that's too unbalancing. And, I remain largely unconvinced of the notion of random die rolling resulting in anything close to realism. So, for me, it's a no brainer. On one hand, we've got a system that might, maybe, increase realism, but, any realism increase is so minor that it can be ignored in the face of the fact that every other aspect of the character is chosen by the player. On the other hand, we can pretty accurately measure the impact of raising or lowering the point buy value of a PC and design our campaign from that point.

IOW, any potential gain in realism, AFAIC, is far, far outweighed by the potential gains in spotlight control and game balance.

 

[Oofta]

That's right it's not on their forehead. It floats above their head along with their name, health bar, and CR.

At least NPCs have that glowing exclamation point above their head if they have a quest available.

 

[Arial Black]

My character isn't a half-orc champion fighter with a 16 strength, he's Bob the Butcher.

One the one hand, I agree with you that our PCs should be more than a set of numbers. This is the appeal of RPGs after all.

On the other hand, this thread is not about the definition of 'character' in RPGs, or whether numbers are less/more important than characterisation. This thread is about "Point-Buy Versus Rolling For Stats" (there's a clue in the title), so it seems strange to favour one stat generating method over the other on the grounds that 'stats do not really matter'.

This thread is all about comparing stat generating methods, therefore for the purposes of this thread then the stats do matter.

The general population has stats ranging from 3 to 18. Even in 5e, according to the 5e DMG. Since conceptually our PCs come from that population, all of those numbers are possible scores for our PCs.

Point-buy disallows scores of less than 8. It also follows that out of the entire population those with any stat of 7 or less are not 'allowed' to be adventurers. When their village gets destroyed by orcs, they are not allowed to turn their ploughshares into swords and be thrust into a life of adventure.

Why? Well...it can be argued (although not convincingly) that low stats are fatal flaws and that such people would not survive and not even try. Despite forty years of rolled PCs with a low stat saying otherwise.

But point-buy also forbids stats above 15 (we are talking about the pre-racial adjustment scores here). Why? When the orcs destroyed the village, Thicko (Int 5), Jack (all stats 8-15) and Tiny (Str/Con 18) are the only survivors. They each salvage weapons and are determined to avenge their people and be swept up in a life of adventure. As they set out, a mysterious figure appears and holds up its hand. "Sorry Thicko, you are too stupid to be an adventurer. Jack, no problem. Tiny, I'm sorry but you are just too strong and tough to be an adventurer!"

WTF? What do you mean, 'too strong to be an adventurer?' That makes no sense at all!

"Of course it makes sense. If Tiny goes after the orcs alongside Jack, then Jack will feel like he's not contributing."

Again, WTF? Actually, Jack says that if the disparity means they cannot adventure together then Jack will bow out because Tiny will get the Job done better than him.

"No, no, it can't be Tiny, he's just too....good!"

That's...good. We want our best guy on the case!

"No, it wouldn't be fair on the orcs"

*tumbleweed* *Thicko picks nose*

We all lost loved ones, and we are all going after the orcs.

"But Thicko will die because he's too stupid to live! No offence."

None taken, dude. I am particularly stupid. In fact, in a statistically average room of 216 people only three people will be more stupid than me.

"And Tiny will kill the orcs too quickly, and Jack will feel bad."

...No...I'll be totally okay with that.

*mysterious stranger disappears in a puff of logic*

*Thicko puts something in his mouth-don't ask!*

Who was the dude in the dress?

 

[Oofta]

This thread is all about comparing stat generating methods, therefore for the purposes of this thread then the stats do matter.

The general population has stats ranging from 3 to 18. Even in 5e, according to the 5e DMG. Since conceptually our PCs come from that population, all of those numbers are possible scores for our PCs.

Point-buy disallows scores of less than 8. It also follows that out of the entire population those with any stat of 7 or less are not 'allowed' to be adventurers. When their village gets destroyed by orcs, they are not allowed to turn their ploughshares into swords and be thrust into a life of adventure.

I've never said ability scores don't matter. On the other hand they don't define my character either*.

You keep going back to this fictional world of a pool of characters; it's a straw man argument. It has nothing to do with game balance or design.

As far as 3-18, so what? With rolling you have a choice of exactly 1 array. It may have numbers from 3-18, it may not. You don't "get" to chose that 7, that 7 is chosen for you. Player agency does not exist other than assigning numbers wherever you want (according to the 5E rules) which is also completely unrealistic

*Just to be clear, Bob the Butcher may be "strong" but exactly what that translates as far as numbers is a meta-game construct. Strong could be anything above average. There is no "+3 to hit" in the fictional world.

 

[Guest 6801328]

On the other hand, this thread is not about the definition of 'character' in RPGs, or whether numbers are less/more important than characterisation. This thread is about "Point-Buy Versus Rolling For Stats" (there's a clue in the title), so it seems strange to favour one stat generating method over the other on the grounds that 'stats do not really matter'.

This thread is all about comparing stat generating methods, therefore for the purposes of this thread then the stats do matter.

That's not really logically correct. There's nothing in the title that prohibits the assertion that "stats do not matter", thus it is a valid argument (whether or not it's factually correct) when determining which method should be used.

 

[Hussar]

Never minding that [MENTION=6799649]Arial Black[/MENTION] is still insisting that a chargen method meant for PC's MUST be applied to NPC's, when that is flat out contradicted by the rules. He's also insisting on the presumption that all NPC's MUST have an 3-18 range, when that isn't true in 5e. They don't have a range at all. If we are insisting that we use PC gen rules for NPC's, then the range is 3-15. THAT is the range for normal humans. Which is no more or less arbitrary than insisting that the top must be 18.

OTOH, if you presume that an 18 is only available after intensive training, and a 20 only to those truly spectacular individuals, i.e. those who gain levels, then the range works perfectly well.

Now, the kings archer regiments aren't all 18 Dex individuals. After all, it would be pretty easy to conscript entire regiments of super high dex people if we are presuming that a 17 or 18 on a die roll for dex. We're only looking at about 1% of the population. That would be easy to find and recruit. Yet, funnily enough, we don't presume that archer battalions are all 18 Dex individuals.

 

[Tony Vargas]

What are the strengths of each system?

Die Rolling: realism appears to be the primary strength of the system.

A less tenuous, but more personal, strength of random generation is providing inspiration when you don't have a concept in mind (or can't choose among several).

Point Buy: . spotlight control and game balance.

Standard array for everyone is probably a shade better for balance. Point-buy gives players more degrees of freedom to build to a concept they may already have in mind, and, reasonable balance means those build are more likely to be viable - as far as stats go...

The flip side of those strengths is that point buy gives you some room to optimize up a superior character, while random gives you a chance to just happen to receive a blatantly superior one.