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D&D 5E Which parts of D&D came from Tolkien?

Sacrosanct

Legend
About the principle I described? I suggest you do some reading.



Yes, because this is an obvious straw man argument that at best just shows you don't understand what you are responding to.

We can obviously have vampire books and movies without it being pulled from Anne Rice, because obviously vampires preexist Anne Rice. But, if we observe fiction which contains elements about vampires that did not exist before Anne Rice wrote her stories, then we can conclude that that fiction descends not from vampire fiction generally but from Anne Rice specifically. So, yes, we can tell whether or not a piece of fiction was influenced by and owes its existence in part to Anne Rice's highly influential works. And likewise, we can tell whether the piece of vampire fiction is influenced by other highly influential works. For example, if we see a close association between bats and vampires, then we can be almost sure that the fiction was influenced by Bram Stoker's Dracula, because Bram Stoker mistranslated the word for 'moth' as 'bat' when researching his story. You might object that the writer was influenced to associate bats and vampires by tales of the vampire bat, but then you'd have to note that the 'vampire bat' was not even called the vampire bat until 1901 - four years after the publication of Dracula - even though it had been known to science for almost 100 years before that.



No, your post is speculation. I have textual evidence. You have offered none. Moreover, you are citing the existence of a tale of the Arabian Nights that so far as I can tell does not exist. The Rocs of the Arabian Nights do not offer benevolent aid in stories that I'm familiar with, but rather carry off sailors inadvertently when the sailors strap themselves to carcasses.



First, #2 is clearly bogus. There are almost no elements common between say the 5th voyage of Sinbad and Tolkien's giant eagles, other than that both are large birds. But more to the point, neither of your speculations are what is at stake.

What you have to show is that the Monster Manual would end up with BOTH an entry for Roc and an entry for Giant Eagle without the influence of Tolkien, and that the entry for Giant Eagle - whatever it's source material - would have been familiar to the writer of the Monster Manual and suggested to them 'Chaotic Good' as an alignment. All I have to show is that the Roc entry clearly conforms to the description of the Roc of Arabian story and so is almost certainly derived from the Arabian stories, and that the Giant Eagle clearly conforms to the description of the Giant Eagles of Tolkien's stories and so is almost certainly derived from the Tolkien stories.

The existence of the two entries speaks for itself, and to my mind settles the question all by itself. No reader of the Arabian Nights alone would be likely to independently imagine two different types of 'Roc', name one of them independently 'Giant Eagle', and also independently imagine them as just large enough to bear a rider but not an elephant and as being generally benevolent. Nor is it reasonable to suppose that this hypothetical inventor in the 1970's is familiar with the Arabian Nights tale but not with Tolkien and is not influenced by Tolkien in his creation of the 'Giant Eagles'.

And further, until you actually show me this hypothetical story of rocs rescuing sailors on purpose because they are benevolent (and not trying to eat a sheep or cow carcass that the sailor has tied themselves to), your theory that Tolkien is influenced by the Roc of Arabic lore and not by more proximal Eurpean ideas like Zeus's companion/sevant the Aetos Dios. Recall if you will that unlike the Roc, the Giant Eagles of Tolkien are the servants of Manwe the 'god' of the sky, and kind of the 'gods' in Tolkien's legerdemain.

I never said they were benevolent, or did it on purpose. I only said they rescued the sailors. Which they did. Which can very likely be the inspirational basis of Tolkien saying "That's a cool idea, I'm gonna use it in my own books with a twist."

Your problem is that you're accusing me of making a strawman while doing the same yourself, and then insulting my intelligence because you can't get past your own narrative. So good day. I have no time to waste on discussing something with someone who is disingenuous.
 

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Celebrim

Legend
Indeed. I'm looking for the article, but I distinctly remember that Gary only included halflings and the Balrog to appease the Tolkien fans, but would have rather left them out. So it's clear that D&D would very much have been created even if Tolkien didn't exist. Any claim that Tolkien directly led to D&D is simply false. The truth is closer to the opposite. D&D was created in spite of Tolkien.

Well, there go the goal posts, running right out of the stadium as fast as you can carry them.
 


billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Sorry, but you're just plain wrong. By your logic, we can't have a vampire book/movie without it being pulled from Anne Rice. And obviously that's not the case. The rest of your post is just pure speculation. Not really accurate either. Between the two:

1. Tolkien created the idea of giant eagles
2. Giant eagles already existed in Arabian myth and Tolkien used them to put into his own stories

It's clear that #2 is the accurate option.

And if you can't have a conversation without insulting me, then that speaks volumes of you, not me.

The vampire argument doesn't even parallel Celebrim's argument about Tolkien's influence on the Giant Eagles of D&D so, no, you're not correctly identifying his logic at all. An argument that actually used Celebrim's logic would be pointing out that a vampire book or movie in which vampires are mopey rockstars is almost certainly influenced by Anne Rice, not the mere presence of vampires themselves.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
*Edit* I mean, it took 40 years for a movie about the Hobbit to come out, and that was animated. Meanwhile, there were plenty of fantasy movies coming out (all of the Sinbad movies, all of the monster movies, etc). So he couldn't have been THAT super popular if no one was making a movie version of it while all these other fantasy movies were being made.
Er...you're forgetting, I think, that while he was alive JRRT didn't really want anyone messing with his works; and after his death trying to get the movie rights from his estate was nigh impossible...

So yeah, he was an influence. And yeah, Gary pulled some stuff from him. But Tolkien is not the end all/be all influence that led to D&D. Seriously, not only do we have Gary's own words, but we have Appendix N that literally tells us all of the other influences.
Both "Gary's own words" and Appendix N are parts of the intentional attempts being made at the time to distance D&D from Tolkein to avoid legal headaches.

JRRT might not be the end all/be all influence, but he's a bigger influence than you seem to want to allow for. Among college-age types in the late 60's/early 70's Tolkein was huge - the word "fad" is not an inaccurate description - and the original D&D designers fell right into that age bracket. This led to a strange cycle that neither side would willingly admit to:

1970-ish - Tolkein fad at its peak, eventually leading to...
1975-ish - fantasy RPG's - borrowing heavily from JRRT and whatever other sources they can find, emerge and evolve into something playable and take off, soon followed by...
1979-ish - second Tolkein fad (due to cartoon movie among other things) peaks, leading to...
1983-ish - fantasy RPG fad at its peak.

Also note that 20 years later the two properties again unintentionally move in near-lockstep:

2002-ish - second RPG fad at its peak, sparked by release of D&D 3e a few years prior
2001-2003 - the three Lord of the Rings movies released, sparking a significant spike in Tolkein interest.

Lan-"the question is not what influenced the game after it was designed, but before and during that process"-efan
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
The vampire argument doesn't even parallel Celebrim's argument about Tolkien's influence on the Giant Eagles of D&D so, no, you're not correctly identifying his logic at all. An argument that actually used Celebrim's logic would be pointing out that a vampire book or movie in which vampires are mopey rockstars is almost certainly influenced by Anne Rice, not the mere presence of vampires themselves.

The original statement I disagreed with were that the concept of giant eagles in D&D were created by Tolkien. They aren't. Celebrim disagreed with me, and then used his logic to actually agree with me? I.e., how can giant eagles in D&D exist because of Tolkien if those giant eagles (rocs) don't have anything in common with Tolkien but are almost exactly like those in Arabian folklore?

My point is that rocs are not in D&D because of Tolkien, but are based off of the myth. So why would he argue with me and present an argument that actually strengthens my position (since rocs in D&D don't share anything that was solely a Tolkien creation of a giant eagle)? By his logic, he was agreeing with me that rocs in D&D don't only exist because of Tolkien because they don't share any "only Tolkien" features. But no, he decided to argue with me an insult my intelligence. Don't know what his problem is, but that's an odd way of going about things.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
The original statement I disagreed with were that the concept of giant eagles in D&D were created by Tolkien. They aren't. Celebrim disagreed with me, and then used his logic to actually agree with me? I.e., how can giant eagles in D&D exist because of Tolkien if those giant eagles (rocs) don't have anything in common with Tolkien but are almost exactly like those in Arabian folklore?

My point is that rocs are not in D&D because of Tolkien, but are based off of the myth. So why would he argue with me and present an argument that actually strengthens my position (since rocs in D&D don't share anything that was solely a Tolkien creation of a giant eagle)? By his logic, he was agreeing with me that rocs in D&D don't only exist because of Tolkien because they don't share any "only Tolkien" features. But no, he decided to argue with me an insult my intelligence. Don't know what his problem is, but that's an odd way of going about things.

Clearly, you are lost in the woods somewhere because that makes absolutely no sense.
 

Celebrim

Legend
So, I dug this up-
http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2010/01/gygax-on-tolkien-again.html

It's interesting because it sources an interview with Gygax from 1974 (which, as noted, is prior to the threatened litigation). I agree with the final paragraph- that Gygax was annoyed by Tolkien's prevalence, didn't see it as a good model for fantasy roleplaying, and that while certain aspects were borrowed (as were aspects from many sources), it isn't nearly as prevalent as some here make it out to be.

I don't know how 'prevalent' it is made out to be, but Tolkien's work is clearly the direct source of dwarves, elves, treants, orcs, goblins, halflings, rangers and many many other things down to small details like there being stone giants that are exceptionally good at throwing rocks.

Are Tolkien's works the sole inspirational source of D&D? Not at all! D&D liberally borrowed every inspiration at hand. There are plenty of things that obviously did not come from Tolkien and that we know did not come from Tolkien. But since Jon Peterson's epic bit of research, most of it documented in 'Playing at the World', we can be quite certain that far more of D&D is Tolkien than even I would have believed 10 years ago, because he documented the textual history where the D&D tropes came from.

For example, before Peterson's work, I would have never imagined that 'fireball' was a Tolkien spell, because it doesn't in the slightest resemble anything actually in the Tolkien text. In the text, Gandalf specifically does not have the power to make fire out of nothing - he can only burn things. So I always imagined fireball had some other source than Tolkien. But, Peterson documented the exact origin of the fireball in D&D, and it turns out it was without a doubt Tolkien inspired, intended to represent Gandalf's fire powers, and that it comes into its familiar form as 'fireball' after some rules simplification for the war gaming crowd.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Clearly, you are lost in the woods somewhere because that makes absolutely no sense.

Someone made the comment about how the concept of giant eagles are in D&D because of Tolkien.
I disagreed, and said the concept of giant eagles was around long before Tolkien, and cited Arabian myth where they exist (not only exist, but also end up rescuing sailors by flying them away--which has obvious similarities to what they do in LotR, even if Tolkien made them intelligent and benevolent which they originally weren't)

So my point was that the fact that giant eagles (rocs) are in D&D are because of the myth, and the claim that they only are there because of Tolkien is incorrect.

That's when he decided to argue with me and say I'm not equipped to have the discussion while at the same time arguing my point (that since D&D rocs don't share Tolkien specific changes, they are not there because of Tolkien).

So why would he disagree with me, personally insult me, if the logic he's using supported my original point? Either he disagrees with me about why rocs are in D&D and the logic he used is completely opposite of his position, or he agrees with me in that rocs aren't in D&D because of Tolkien, but decided to take cheap shots and insults because...
 


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