D&D 5E Why D&D is not (just) Tolkien

[Shadowdweller00]

REH wrote the Kull stories in the late 1920s (they were published in 1929, I think) and the Conan stories in the 1930s.

I'm not sure what examples you have in mind of "team" adventures in REH's S&S stories, though. Tower of the Elephant? (Where one of the duo dies.)

Rogues in the House, Red Nails, Beyond the Black River...

But I'm sure LOTR doesn't REALLY count as a "party adventure" either since Boromir dies, Gandalf is dragged off by a balrog, and Frodo is incapacitated by Shelob, leaving Sam to rescue him from a troop of orcs alone...

 

[Shadowdweller00]

Who do you think in this thread is denying that Robin Hood stories predate (and presumalby inspired) JRRT?

Denying that the existing archetype was a major impetus behind the ranger, not denying that it predated Tolkien...

 

[Parmandur]

Denying that the existing archetype was a major impetus behind the ranger, not denying that it predated Tolkien...

The impetus was a teenager saying "I wanna play Aragorn," pretty singularly. Robin Hood et alia aren't irrelevant, but we know the impetus of the Ranger bring a distinct class from Fighting Man in very specific terms.

 

[Parmandur]

Rogues in the House, Red Nails, Beyond the Black River...

But I'm sure LOTR doesn't REALLY count as a "party adventure" either since Boromir dies, Gandalf is dragged off by a balrog, and Frodo is incapacitated by Shelob, leaving Sam to rescue him from a troop of orcs alone...

Conan had followers, not follow party members. He was a singular superhuman figure. Not that Tolkien invented diverse groups of people working together, but Fafhred and the Grey Mouser bring a duo was a bit large for a S&S set let alone a large party.

The party in D&D has more to do with wargaming roots and culture than any literary antecedent, I think.

 

[rogermexico]

I feel like westerns are a big source of the concept of the adventure party that we have for D&D. Specifically The Magnificent 7 or maybe even The Wild Bunch. Actually war movies too – Kelly's Heroes or The Great Escape.

 

[Parmandur]

I feel like westerns are a big source of the concept of the adventure party that we have for D&D. Specifically The Magnificent 7 or maybe even The Wild Bunch. Actually war movies too – Kelly's Heroes or The Great Escape.

In fiction in general, and military history, plenty of examples: the new thing in D&D is that the group is all Conan, Harry Potter, St. Francis of Assistance, Bruce Lee, Aragorn and Merlin.

 

[Caliburn101]

[/B]Edit- I mean, do you not understand why this is a big deal? The whole Hammer Films/Arneson/Sir Fang/Vampire Hunter to Priest to Cleric thing is fairly well established, the history of why clerics don't use edged weapons is pretty well established, and, AFAIK, I thought that the turning undead was pretty well established too given the above. Given what you said, I tried googling your version, and couldn't find any other references to it, any where, in any documents or accounts by people at the time (but maybe I missed something). So, I'm really at a loss here buddy.

Then I can only suggest going out and experiencing things for yourself instead of spending so many hours of your life Googling things and taking it all as truth.

You'll find as you get older that you tend to remember most clearly the things that gave you pleasure or pain at the time, and they don't fade. A lot else does... such as the last 100 Google searches I did - can't really remember much about them - but the conversation I had with Gygax was one, the entire day with my girlfriend on my 21st birthday - that's another... and the conversation I had with Terry Pratchett about the GURPS Discworld conversion, whilst he was wearing his favourite hat and cap - that's another.

I could go one, because I am now over 50... us older people tend to have gone out and done a fair amount of stuff with our time.

Personally I don't really care if you cannot accept something Google doesn't confirm for you, or are happy to list the first choice of your interpretations of what I claimed as the one where I am a liar.

In fact you keep on repeating that 'possibility' - that I am a liar, and you keep hedging your language so as not to come straight out and say it - as that would break the forum rules. You seem to know right where the red line is and how to 'relieve yourself' over it in your targets firm direction without consequence.

Do you want me to applaud your efforts?

Why don't you instead do something more constructive to do with your time, or, should the spirit of adventure take you, make a decision about that without algorithmic guidance?

... and don't call me buddy, you haven't earned the right to be familiar with me.

 

[Parmandur]

Then I can only suggest going out and experiencing things for yourself instead of spending so many hours of your life Googling things and taking it all as truth.

You'll find as you get older that you tend to remember most clearly the things that gave you pleasure or pain at the time, and they don't fade. A lot else does... such as the last 100 Google searches I did - can't really remember much about them - but the conversation I had with Gygax was one, the entire day with my girlfriend on my 21st birthday - that's another... and the conversation I had with Terry Pratchett about the GURPS Discworld conversion, whilst he was wearing his favourite hat and cap - that's another.

I could go one, because I am now over 50... us older people tend to have gone out and done a fair amount of stuff with our time.

Personally I don't really care if you cannot accept something Google doesn't confirm for you, or are happy to list the first choice of your interpretations of what I claimed as the one where I am a liar.

In fact you keep on repeating that 'possibility' - that I am a liar, and you keep hedging your language so as not to come straight out and say it - as that would break the forum rules. You seem to know right where the red line is and how to 'relieve yourself' over it in your targets firm direction without consequence.

Do you want me to applaud your efforts?

Why don't you instead do something more constructive to do with your time, or, should the spirit of adventure take you, make a decision about that without algorithmic guidance?

... and don't call me buddy, you haven't earned the right to be familiar with me.

I personally have no doubt about what Gygax said to you, but I seriously take anything the man said with a boulder of salt.

 

[pemerton]

Denying that the existing archetype was a major impetus behind the ranger, not denying that it predated Tolkien...

The reason are denying that is because everyone knows, by way of direct report from the originators, that the ranger was brought into the game because a player wanted to play Aragorn. As [MENTION=6780330]Parmandur[/MENTION] and others have posted.
[MENTION=6780330]Parmandur[/MENTION] also deals with the point about parties. Conan doesn't operate in the context of a party. Sometimes he has a sidekick/cohort. Tower of the Elephant is an exception to that - the two meet more as peers - but then the second one dies pretty quickly.

I don't know the Lankhmar stories anywhere near as well, but they seem much closer to a party style (albeit a duo rather than a team).

 

[flametitan]

The party in D&D has more to do with wargaming roots and culture than any literary antecedent, I think.

Most likely. Apparently in Greyhawk it was pretty popular to see how well you could do playing it solo.