Warlock Patron: the Sisters (Witch)

[Guest 6801328]

Awesome feedback. Thanks!

I'm wondering if Dissonant Whispers would be a better option than Ray of Sickness. Especially since I personally see Ray of Sickness as a relatively underpowered spell, even by 1st level spell standards.

I thought about Dissonant Whispers, but it didn't feel Witchy enough (or not enough like the feeling I'm going for, which is more of a fairy tale witch. I agree Ray of Sickness is not a great spell (although at least it scales with slot level) but Warlocks already have some good 1st level spells to choose, so this was a flavor choice.

I also wonder if Geas would be a better option than Dominate Person. With witches you normally think of curses, but magically forcing a person to act against their nature or corrupting them in some way is also related. The afflicted still has choice and freewill, but acting against the witch causes nasty consequences. And as a 1 min casting time with only verbal components, I can imagine a witch or a hag at a public parade or ceremony, calmly whispering nearby and staying out of sight, until the last moment when they approach and point their knobby fingers and call out to their target some dreadful task. The baker that wronged them will feel ill and act in disgust around the dough that he must use in his craft. The banker that denied her the loan to save her home must take a coin and find a way to convince the witch to freely take it back, being haunted by nightmares and psychically tormented until they find a way to do so. Witches don't dominate the free will of others, so much as find ways to twist the natures of others.

Agreed. Geas it is.

I see what you are trying to do with this. But as you have it right now, it doesn't really work for a 1st level ability. For example, how does this compare to 30ft telepathy? Or a short range 1 round area effect charm/fright? I really think this as written would be better as an invocation, and allow you a little more design space to work with it. Otherwise, I might suggest moving it to level 6 and reworking it a bit. If I were to do this ability, I would write it up like this:

Weal and Woe
At 6th level you have learned to observe the golden threads of fate that entangle with the life lines of all creatures, giving you some ability to manipulate probability. When you or another creature within 30ft of you makes an ability check or saving throw, you can use your reaction to grant them advantage. If this target succeeds on the check, then you may choose a new target within 30ft. The next ability check or saving throw they make is made with disadvantage. Once you have used this ability, you must wait until you finish a short or long rest to use it again.

Reasoning: Level 6 is a level all about reactions to alter outcomes and fate. Archfey can get out of danger quick. Fiend can gain a bonus to a save or check. GOO can affect the outcomes of attacks. It's more succinct than Witch's Charm, but still works at what I think the essence of what you're trying to accomplish. As it is right now as a 1st level Patron ability, compared to the others in the PHB its somewhat unwieldy and potentially more powerful. I've heard that Advantage works out to something equivalent to a +5 bonus. So a character would get a consistent +5 bonus over an 8 hour day until they fail. Just seems too much.

I agree this "fits" well at level 6, but making charms is really soooo thematically Witchy that I really wanted to work that in.

I wish you had kept the 1st level ability you originally had somewhere. I remember that it was an appropriate ability, both thematically and in terms of power.[/quote]

That was the original level 1 Cackle. Yeah, it was ok.

Maybe I should flip them back...make Cackle a relatively minor 1st level ability, and then make charm crafting more powerful. Hmmm...

This is way more powerful than other 6th level abilities granted by warlock Patrons. Compare this to the fiend, that gets a d10 bonus to a save or ability check, the GOO that forces disadvantage on one attack with a possible advantage to attack that target, or the Archfey that gets a quick escape. If you were to keep this, I would change it as follows to keep it in line with the power level of other Patrons:

Poof!
At 6th level, you have learned to curse those that would harm you, giving you a chance to more easily deal with them. When a creature makes an attack roll against you, you can use your reaction to change your attacker into a toad. Your attacker maintains their normal statistics, but cannot speak, attack, cast spells, or move more than 10ft. This change lasts until the start of your next turn, or until the target takes damage. Once you have used this ability you cannot use it again until you have finished a short or long rest.

Reasoning: This makes it more like the Archfey's Misty Escape. But instead of running, it temporarily removes a combatant from the field for a round.

Misty Escape is essentially the 2nd level spell Misty Step, albeit with twice the range. So I was going for a 2nd level spell.

As written, mine is sort of equivalent to Hold Person in that it takes a single opponent out of combat for 10 rounds if they fail a save, with concentration. Except Hold Person gives everybody free criticals and this one breaks on any damage. So it's really much weaker than a 2nd level spell.

Maybe I'll add a requirement that the attacker is a humanoid or beast.

This ability is kind of all over the place. For one, in order for it to work it assumes that the warlock has a means of scrying an individual and has an enchantment spell to use. You don't grant this warlock Scrying as a bonus spell, and even if you did, a Warlock does not autmoatically get their Patron spells. They only expand the list that warlocks can choose from (I disagree with this and have homebrewed that warlocks get their Patron spells automatically, but that's a bit off topic). It also requires the Warlock to use a minimum of 2 of their spell slots to take full advantage of, assuming they have taken Scrying and an enchantment spell. If I were writing up this ability, I would do so like this:

Mirror, Mirror
At 10th level you become a master of magical scrying. Once per long rest, you may cast the Scrying spell without expending a spell slot. When cast in this way, you do not require a focus, but you must have access to some reflective surface (such as a mirror, a calm pool of water, a polished knife, ect).

In addition, you are immune to divination spells. If someone attempts to cast a divination spell on you, you may make a Wisdom saving throw against the caster's Spell Save DC. If you succeed, you are able to shape and influence what information the caster can gather. You cannot provide false information, but you can determine selectively what information the caster gathers. The caster remains unaware that anything is wrong with the spell. If you fail this Wisdom save, the divination magic used against you simply fails.

Reasoning: Initially I thought immunity to only scrying. If done like this, casting a spell through the scrying might be appropriate, given how seldom this is likely to arise in a normal game. Immunity to divination spells is a bit more powerful and more likely to come up. But to be honest, outside of spells like Scrying, True Sight, or Locate Object or Creature I'm not sure what spells exist that this would impact. So I don't know if that in itself is too powerful an ability for level 10. It has much less combat utility than the other Patrons, and nothing prevents scrying your companions, so I have a feeling that it might be ok.

The two-spell-requirement concerned me, too. One assumption I'm making...which perhaps is my first mistake...is that anybody who really wants to play a Witch is going to get a familiar, either through Tome or Chain boon. So even without making Arcane Eye or Clairvoyance one of their 11 spells they can still "magically view" through they eyes of their familiar.

Immunity to Divination, not just scrying, is a good idea. Although I'd probably make it advantage on saving throws instead of outright immunity, to make it more like damage resistance that other subclasses have.

But either way, divination spells being used on PCs is an edge case in many (most?) campaigns, so it needs something extra. A free Scrying once per Long Rest, as you recommend, fits the bill.

I'm having a hard time letting go of the idea of casting a spell through the Scrying, though....

Looking at the Archfey or the Fiend, this is a bit too powerful against multiple enemies. I would say limit it to one, and you would probably be ok (similar to the Archfey ability in terms of structure and power). Alternatively, you could have it force disadvantage on all attacks or saves for all those who fail the save within range, but if done that way I wouldn't have it last longer than "until the start of your next turn." Also, you should add that it recharges on a short or long rest (unclear on recharge rate in your description).

Yeah, it was supposed to be once per long rest.

While it's very (too) powerful against multiple enemies, it's weaker than some of the other capstones against single enemies. I think I liked this better as a 1st level ability that lasted for 1 round with a smaller radius.

I hope this is helpful!

Very. I'm going to process and make another pass. Thanks.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Change Log:
- Replaced Dominate Person with Geas (as per Hawk Diesel's Suggestion) and also replaced Arcane Eye with Polymorph. Yes, Polymorph is also available as an incantation but it's so iconic that two sources is ok.
- Reverted Cackle to its 1st level version.
- Moved Witch's Charm to 14th and made it last longer. (Thinking of still adding some kind of Intelligence check to allow unaware recipients to notice its effect.)
- Also reverted Poof! to require the Warlock to use a spell slot. If they want to use it to Polymorph they'll just have to have it prepared.
- Simplified Mirror, Mirror along the lines Hawk Diesel suggested. Less fun, but overall much better I think.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

I agree this "fits" well at level 6, but making charms is really soooo thematically Witchy that I really wanted to work that in.

Totally understand and agree it is a great concept. I just think you would have more success designing it as an invocation. You'd have more design space and can have more freedom as you can level gate it.

Misty Escape is essentially the 2nd level spell Misty Step, albeit with twice the range. So I was going for a 2nd level spell.

As written, mine is sort of equivalent to Hold Person in that it takes a single opponent out of combat for 10 rounds if they fail a save, with concentration. Except Hold Person gives everybody free criticals and this one breaks on any damage. So it's really much weaker than a 2nd level spell.

Maybe I'll add a requirement that the attacker is a humanoid or beast.

I see where your thought process is going. But I don't think the balance point for this class feature is around a second level power. Especially when you compare with Dark One's Own Luck or Entropic Ward. The common thread for these abilities is that these abilities don't last more than a round, and tend to be reactionary or in response to some circumstance (being damaged, rolling poorly, or being attacked). Even the Celestial Warlock from XGtE (which I find to be relatively balanced, way more so than the Hexblade) is really only equivalent to a minor invocation (Agonizing blast, though a little more useful/flexible).

 

[Guest 6801328]

Totally understand and agree it is a great concept. I just think you would have more success designing it as an invocation. You'd have more design space and can have more freedom as you can level gate it.

I suppose since I'm homebrewing anyway I can also make up my own invocations. Hmm. That's a pretty compelling argument. I'm going to noodle on that. Thanks.

I see where your thought process is going. But I don't think the balance point for this class feature is around a second level power. Especially when you compare with Dark One's Own Luck or Entropic Ward. The common thread for these abilities is that these abilities don't last more than a round, and tend to be reactionary or in response to some circumstance (being damaged, rolling poorly, or being attacked). Even the Celestial Warlock from XGtE (which I find to be relatively balanced, way more so than the Hexblade) is really only equivalent to a minor invocation (Agonizing blast, though a little more useful/flexible).

What do you think of the latest (reverted) version: you are simply able to cast a spell at your attacker as a reaction, which consumes a slot? (If you want to use Polymorph that's up to you.)

 

[Guest 6801328]

One other thought about crafting charms: what if it went back to level 1, but was always just single use? Warlock would choose Advantage or Disadvantage and the specific saving throw affected, and the body parts would still be required. This feels to me closer to existing 1st level abilities, but has potentially nifty uses at all levels (specifically, craft one that will cause a BBEG to fail a critical saving throw...such as versus the Monk's Quivering Palm...if you can get the BBEG's fingernails and then get him to wear it.)

 

[Guest 6801328]

Here's a potential 1st level (or Invocation?) version:

Witch’s Charm
When forming a Pact with the Sisters at 1st level the Warlock gains the ability to craft charms that grant good or bad luck in the form of Advantage or Disadvantage to a single Saving Throw. Crafting the charm requires a short rest and bit of the intended recipient, such as a lock of hair, a few drops of blood, or some nail parings. At the end of the rest the Warlock specifies for whom the charm is attuned, which saving throw is affected, and whether it provides good or bad luck. The charm must be worn or carried about one’s body to be effective. It retains its magic until it affects one saving throw, or until the Warlock crafts another charm. (Note that obtaining the ingredients from an unwilling or unknowing subject, and convincing or tricking them into carrying it, might be an adventure in itself.)

Then I can go back to something more in-the-moment and offensive for the 14th level capstone.

And another thought: maybe Cackle should just be a ribbon. Something that can be heard at surprisingly large distances, but whose location is impossible to pinpoint. That could replace Eye of Newt, Wing of Bat, which is a little tangential anyway because I never ended up giving her the ability to make potions.*

So what would be a good offensive capstone? Maybe something called "Evil Eye". How about something that imposes Disadvantage on all rolls and weakens resistances (resistance negated, immunity becomes resistance) for one round?

*New Invocation Idea: Proficiency with Herbalism Kit, plus after each Long rest get 1 free common potion. At level X that becomes common or uncommon potion, and level Y rare potions get added. Potions only last 8 hours.

 

[77IM]

Wow, this is excellent!

Some quick feedback:

Poof!
At 6th level, when the Warlock takes damage from a spell or weapon attack she may use her reaction to cast a spell at the attacker, provided the attacker is known and visible. The spell used must be a transmutation or enchantment, and can affect only the attacker. The Warlock must take a short or long rest before using this ability again.

I'd specify that the spell cast must have a casting time of 1 action, and must be of 5th level or lower. I can't think of any targeted transmutations or enchantments that take longer than 1 action to cast, but, something could come up in a supplement.

"...can affect only the attacker" is ambiguous; it could be taken to mean that an AOE spell has its area shrunk to fit the attacker, or that an AOE is allowed so long as no-one else is caught in the blast. I'd change this to "...must only target the attacker," since the word target has a better mechanical definition.

Finally, for some reason I don't like Cackle. The effect seems very situational (you're basically giving up your action to nerf some enemy attacks for 1 round... usually it's better to just shoot somebody) and it seems to shoehorn the witch into a particular stereotype.

I don't have a good suggestion for a replacement ability, though. One idea is to let the player pick from one of three abilities, one for each of the sisters. E.g. you can pick Crone's Cackle, Vixen's Allure, or Weaver's Sight at 1st level. I'm just spitballing here.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Wow, this is excellent!

Some quick feedback:



I'd specify that the spell cast must have a casting time of 1 action, and must be of 5th level or lower. I can't think of any targeted transmutations or enchantments that take longer than 1 action to cast, but, something could come up in a supplement.

"...can affect only the attacker" is ambiguous; it could be taken to mean that an AOE spell has its area shrunk to fit the attacker, or that an AOE is allowed so long as no-one else is caught in the blast. I'd change this to "...must only target the attacker," since the word target has a better mechanical definition.

I tried that, but then I worried about it being interpreted as targeting an aoe spell on the attacker. So maybe "target and affect". Or "it must be a spell that affects only a single target" as opposed to "the spell must affect only a single target".

Finally, for some reason I don't like Cackle. The effect seems very situational (you're basically giving up your action to nerf some enemy attacks for 1 round... usually it's better to just shoot somebody) and it seems to shoehorn the witch into a particular stereotype.

I don't have a good suggestion for a replacement ability, though. One idea is to let the player pick from one of three abilities, one for each of the sisters. E.g. you can pick Crone's Cackle, Vixen's Allure, or Weaver's Sight at 1st level. I'm just spitballing here.

Oh, I actually quite like that. I was trying to think of a way to work in a choice between all three sisters. Maybe even do that at both 1st and 10th levels...

Oh my. I have work to do!

Thanks for feedback.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Question for anybody reading this thread: what would the appropriate level for this ability be?

Twist Fate (edited)
After each long rest the Warlock determines her initial Twist Fate value by rolling a d20. Until the next long rest, when somebody within 30' of the Warlock rolls the Twist Fate value on an unmodified attack roll, saving throw, or ability check, but before the result is determined, the Warlock may use her reaction to force the creature to re-roll. The new result must be used, and it also becomes the new Twist Fate value.


I thought about putting limited charges on it (e.g., Charisma modifier) but since its use is so unpredictable, and can't really be used "at will", maybe it doesn't need it?

 

[Dausuul]

Twist Fate
After each long rest the Warlock rolls a d20. Until the next long rest, any time somebody within 10' rolls that exact result, but before the result is determined, the Warlock may use her reaction to force the creature to re-roll. The new result must be used.

The ten-foot range severely limits the utility of this ability. The chances that a potential target is within 10 feet at the right moment are low. I would widen the radius to 30 or even 50 feet. I also agree that it doesn't need a usage limit.

The way I would go at balancing this is: Let's say you roll a number between 1 and 10. In that case, you'll mostly be using this ability on allies. So on any given roll, there is a 5% chance that you re-roll it. On average, such a re-roll is going to yield a +5 bonus*. So, that is a 5% chance of a +5 bonus, or an overall +0.25 to all allied d20 rolls.

By similar logic, if you get between 11 and 20, you'll use it on enemies and impose a -0.25 penalty. So each day, you'll be giving either +0.25 to your allies or -0.25 to your enemies, but not both**. That's a nice ability but far from game-breaking. It's also very flavorful. I like it.

My one concern with this is what happens when the die comes up 20. In that case, you go from "once in a while re-rolls" to "your party is 95% immune to crits." The fact that it lasts all day means that on that day, you have a big advantage. Maybe that's a desired goal (the stars are in alignment, today is a day of good fortune), but it's one more factor, albeit weak, pushing the DM to constantly find ways of imposing time pressure. If the PCs can spend three weeks waiting for the propitious day, it's strongly in their interest to do it.

What if, instead of re-rolling after each long rest, you re-rolled after using the ability?

[SIZE=-2]*Remember that we are assuming you've rolled between 1 and 10; on average, 5.5. The average result of a re-roll is 10.5. So the effective bonus is (10.5 - 5.5) = +5.

**Well, actually, sorta both. If you get a really high roll, you'll always use it on enemies, and if you get a low roll, you'll always use it on allies. A midrange roll, however, might be used on enemies or allies depending on circumstances. I assume it will balance out; the times when you make an enemy re-roll a 9 will be balanced by the times you don't have an ally re-roll a 9.[/SIZE]