D&D 5E No Magic Shops!

[dco]

Well, I would point out that there are many people that have played D&D for decades without magic item pricing, and that they have managed to find reasons to play.

That said, this is just a different philosophy (and that's fine!). Some people like to design their characters from level 1 to 20, including what magic items they get to power up their characters. Heck, some editions of D&D encouraged this type of design.

5e isn't one of those editions. You don't need magic items. They are a bonus. But, yes, magic items are fun and awesome! Some people prefer to think of magic items as design points, as things that they, as players, read about (you know, that "boring stuff about how magic items work") so that they can pick out the best magic items for their characters and get them. Others view them more like a bonus, and adjust their characters as they get magic items; some of my coolest characters were influenced by serendipitous magic items.

There isn't a wrong there, but it's definitely a preference. I hope you find a table that matches your preference.

Nothing wrong, only my group preferences, some people never cared about optimizing their characters and as we get old others have less time and prefer to dedicate it to other things.

With the 3, 3.5, Pathfinder and 4e is going to be difficult to play without magic shops because the systems expect the characters to have X amount of money per level spent on magic items. You can always play without magic items or the ones that the adventure/campaign gives you (impossible to be optimized for all kind of characters and teams), but then a lot of fights are not going to be fun, only cruel tpks.
At some point the players or the DM has to do their homework and read what are the best magic items for the team and the magic shop was a resource to buy or change things, another thing I didn't like is that some items were practically obligatory.

As D&D 5e streamlined a lot of things the end of the magic shops was a good choice, easier for new players and old players who don't want to spend more time. On the other hand people who want the old magic shops can easily use the old charts but they will face a similar problem to the people who didn't want magic items with the old editions, the bestiary works far better without magic items.

This is an entirely valid gripe but I can only see it come up when you're building a character over 20 levels and decide what you want to be when your character grows up from the onset.

Take optimization based on game rules out of the discussion for a minute and think about optimization based on the game world.

Personally, I advise my players to not build their characters to 20 during character generation. Reason for this is that I believe its better from a player perspective to build a character around the nuances of the campaign and game world than the rules set.

That way if you happen to find a masterwork axe of eternal fubar +2 and don't have the proficiency for it yet, you know you can keep the axe and get the skill later. It doesn't mess up your grand plan for your character. Same can be said for any other choice as whatever comes up in the game might be cooler than what you imagined to begin with.

Peace
KB

There are lots of adventure paths, campaigns, etc that can bring characters to 16-20 level. In any case the old games expected the characters to have magic items to face some encounters and characters had feats that should be picked when you leveled up without knowing what the adventure was going to give you. That's by design, if you had a chain of feats for one kind of weapon and the adventure didn't give you a magic weapon of that type you were screwed or you needed a magic shop.

5e characters are far more versatile, spellcasters have more versatility with spells, martial classes have more versatility with weapons, all have two good saves, etc. You won't have too much choices when you level up, perhaps if you play with feats and those at least don't have other feat taxes.

 

[Kobold Boots]

You're right, of course, I don't have to read it, and if what you say is true then I've clearly overstepped in my assessment. Like yourself, though, I seem to be irresistibly drawn here despite my intent to bow out pages ago.

Is there a way to put a thread on my block list?

Best way is to remove your subscription to it so you don't get email from it every day.

 

[Kobold Boots]

Nothing wrong, only my group preferences, some people never cared about optimizing their characters and as we get old others have less time and prefer to dedicate it to other things.

With the 3, 3.5, Pathfinder and 4e is going to be difficult to play without magic shops because the systems expect the characters to have X amount of money per level spent on magic items. You can always play without magic items or the ones that the adventure/campaign gives you (impossible to be optimized for all kind of characters and teams), but then a lot of fights are not going to be fun, only cruel tpks.
At some point the players or the DM has to do their homework and read what are the best magic items for the team and the magic shop was a resource to buy or change things, another thing I didn't like is that some items were practically obligatory.

As D&D 5e streamlined a lot of things the end of the magic shops was a good choice, easier for new players and old players who don't want to spend more time. On the other hand people who want the old magic shops can easily use the old charts but they will face a similar problem to the people who didn't want magic items with the old editions, the bestiary works far better without magic items.


There are lots of adventure paths, campaigns, etc that can bring characters to 16-20 level. In any case the old games expected the characters to have magic items to face some encounters and characters had feats that should be picked when you leveled up without knowing what the adventure was going to give you. That's by design, if you had a chain of feats for one kind of weapon and the adventure didn't give you a magic weapon of that type you were screwed or you needed a magic shop.

Sure, and if the path isn't on a strict timetable such that players don't have a logical place to break, then the DM needs to modify the treasure list to benefit the players, otherwise like most APs where there's expected to be a few weeks at least between modules, players can craft.

I hear what you're saying but any reason that can be easily corrected by the DM with a hand wave isn't a good reason for a magic shop. If the AP takes players from 1-20 in a matter of three months of game time - you've got a great point.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

But, thinking about this, there is an idea in here. A UA article which has a big table. In column 1, you list all the magic items in D&D in alphabetical order - just the names. Column 2 lists the DMG prices. Column 3 lists prices based on a la carte player buying. Column 4 lists prices based on impact to world building and goes high - sort of an Eberron selling guide. Column 5 lists prices for a low magic world.

Then give advice as to how to adjust the numbers based on your individual campaigns. I could see something like this being a useful baseline to start from.

That would definitely be something!

 

[Maxperson]

Nothing wrong, only my group preferences, some people never cared about optimizing their characters and as we get old others have less time and prefer to dedicate it to other things.

With the 3, 3.5, Pathfinder and 4e is going to be difficult to play without magic shops because the systems expect the characters to have X amount of money per level spent on magic items. You can always play without magic items or the ones that the adventure/campaign gives you (impossible to be optimized for all kind of characters and teams), but then a lot of fights are not going to be fun, only cruel tpks.
At some point the players or the DM has to do their homework and read what are the best magic items for the team and the magic shop was a resource to buy or change things, another thing I didn't like is that some items were practically obligatory.

I can't really speak to 4e, or Pathfinder(though Pathfinder seems to be like 3e), but this is incorrect for 3e/3.5. You needed magic items, yes, but there was zero need for magic item shops of any sort. 3e was a very easy edition to survive with magic items you find. It just became much easier, as in cakewalk snoozefest if you could buy whatever you wanted in a magic shop. I still play 3.5 and it is the edition with the fewest deaths and TPKs, despite many different DMs, only two of whom allowed magic marts.

 

[Hussar]

I can't really speak to 4e, or Pathfinder(though Pathfinder seems to be like 3e), but this is incorrect for 3e/3.5. You needed magic items, yes, but there was zero need for magic item shops of any sort. 3e was a very easy edition to survive with magic items you find. It just became much easier, as in cakewalk snoozefest if you could buy whatever you wanted in a magic shop. I still play 3.5 and it is the edition with the fewest deaths and TPKs, despite many different DMs, only two of whom allowed magic marts.

Heh, different experiences. I found 3e ridiculously easy to kill PC's.

And, just to be clear, do you mean "no magic shops" as in no actual physical store, or no buying magic items at all? Because, to be fair, 3e did presume that you would be able to buy magic items pretty much buffet style. There's a reason that the Big 6 items were a thing.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Heh, different experiences. I found 3e ridiculously easy to kill PC's.

And, just to be clear, do you mean "no magic shops" as in no actual physical store, or no buying magic items at all? Because, to be fair, 3e did presume that you would be able to buy magic items pretty much buffet style. There's a reason that the Big 6 items were a thing.

That highlights another pitfall of magic shops and price lists: the DM introduces a fun and interesting magic item, and the players thinks, "Cool...I can sell that for 1.5x the price of a +1/+1 weapon, which would statistically be more useful."

 

[MoonSong]

That highlights another pitfall of magic shops and price lists: the DM introduces a fun and interesting magic item, and the players thinks, "Cool...I can sell that for 1.5x the price of a +1/+1 weapon, which would statistically be more useful."

Well, it is certainly a pitfall, but it can go both ways, without magic shops the DM can end up introducing only +1 weapons and no interesting magic items whatsoever. And I have already told too many times how in my experience this is more the rule than the exception.

 

[Sunseeker]

That highlights another pitfall of magic shops and price lists: the DM introduces a fun and interesting magic item, and the players thinks, "Cool...I can sell that for 1.5x the price of a +1/+1 weapon, which would statistically be more useful."

Who determines an item is fun and interesting? The DM? Or the players? I mean, I'm pretty sure the players get to tell the DM when they're having fun and when they're not. The DM can intend for something to be fun all they want, but that doesn't mean that just because the DM thinks it would be fun that it ya know, IS.

It's sort of the conundrum of presents for kids, for all your best intentions, sometimes cash is the best gift.

 

[Maxperson]

Heh, different experiences. I found 3e ridiculously easy to kill PC's.

If you try, you can set things up to kill PCs, sure. If you play the game as the rules lay out, it's pathetically easy.

And, just to be clear, do you mean "no magic shops" as in no actual physical store, or no buying magic items at all? Because, to be fair, 3e did presume that you would be able to buy magic items pretty much buffet style. There's a reason that the Big 6 items were a thing.

When most people talk about 3e having magic shops or magic marts, they are talking about how the rules set it up so that every major city has every item easily available. The city itself IS the magic mart. It's what the rules set up, and it makes an easy game into a pathetically easy one. In order to challenge a group that has access to magic marts, you have to bring out monsters with CRs well above the party, or set up the terrain so that it magnifies the CR to one well above the party.