Guidance Cleric cantrip is really dumb

[5ekyu]

There certainly might be some DM judgement and intervention if the player tried to apply the god's will outside of the god's interests, as adjudicated by the DM. That's the nature of the game.



I'm frankly getting tired of your innuendo and snarky sarcasm. This will be my last response to you.

There are two solutions to the problem of "constant breaking immersion."

One, reduce the frequency of the interruptions.
Two, make it so that it's not an interruption at all.

I think either one is a good solution. Neither one has anything to do with balance. Sod off.

Reducing the frequency of the uses, limiting the cases by divine domain, *does* impact balance whether it is intended or not.

Thats the point.

If the goal is **not** to change balance and weaken the ability, "solutions" that do those things should not be preferred, not be highlighted as reducing the uses and not be put on equal footing with solutions that simply remove the disruptive effects and leave the scope alone?

Right?

Why mess with the balance and power if the balance and power we all agree is fine as it is?

 

[iserith]

A player is getting involved in the scene - I don't see how this is a problem. Maybe the DM is too in love with their own voice?

I imagine that there's a visceral reaction to it being unfair in some way - perhaps because there is no downside, trade-off, or cost - and so, lacking a good, rational explanation for why it's perceived as unfair, it's identified as an "immersion" issue. Which I always take with a grain of salt because "immersion" is one of those topics like "metagaming" where hardly anybody agrees on what it is exactly (and rarely bother to settle on a definition of it before arguing about it). Thus "guidance is dumb because it breaks mah 'mersion!"

So I would lay objections to guidance chiefly at the feet of lacking a cost to using it all the time. However, given its duration, I think the problem rather solves itself. It works on quick tasks, but not on longer ones. The frequency of its practical use is thus reduced by some measure and the fact that it can be used in some circumstances and not in others means it has some kind of limitation which increases the odds in my view that it's seen as more fair.

 

[Uller]

So I would lay objections to guidance chiefly at the feet of lacking a cost to using it all the time. .

I would be inclined to agree. There are lots of very useful cantrips that get over used and overcome obstacles at no real cost...like damaging cantrips that get around monster defining abilities (firebolt or acid splash vs trolls for instance). Used to be that a lowlevel party had to spend a valuable resource to defeat a troll or use sub optimal attacks. Now just hit with a common cantrip and everyone wails on like a normal bag of hp.

My preference would be for cantrips to have some cost or limit. But they don't and I try to avoid or limit house rules...so I live with it.

 

[iserith]

I would be inclined to agree. There are lots of very useful cantrips that get over used and overcome obstacles at no real cost...like damaging cantrips that get around monster defining abilities (firebolt or acid splash vs trolls for instance). Used to be that a lowlevel party had to spend a valuable resource to defeat a troll or use sub optimal attacks. Now just hit with a common cantrip and everyone wails on like a normal bag of hp.

My preference would be for cantrips to have some cost or limit. But they don't and I try to avoid or limit house rules...so I live with it.

I very rarely have trolls in my games so this isn't so much of a problem for me, I guess.

Although last session, I did have a troll in one scene. Only it was different - fire attacks caused it to explode.

 

[FrogReaver]

Yea. I think the guidance problem is more about players calling or expecting checks or being able to retcon guidance into the situation.

I find it rarely used as it's nearly impossible to tell when or where a check is going to be required. Except in a few specific circumstances.

Rogue goes to inspect / open door. Do you cast guidance on him or on the wizard in the back?

If you cast it on the rogue assuming the door needs checked he wizard in he back may miss a very important perception check...

about the the best use in my groups for it is to keep it on a single character all the time.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

Yea. I think the guidance problem is more about players calling or expecting checks or being able to retcon guidance into the situation....

If the die has been rolled, "Too late."

 

[FrogReaver]

If the die has been rolled, "Too late."

One step further.

If the check has been called for. Too late

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

...perhaps because there is no downside, trade-off, or cost...

It's a concentration spell, so that's a downside.

 

[iserith]

It's a concentration spell, so that's a downside.

Since it's mostly cast in out-of-combat situations, it's not much of one in my view. Not that there needs to be a downside. I just don't think that is much of a limitation.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Since it's mostly cast in out-of-combat situations, it's not much of one in my view. Not that there needs to be a downside. I just don't think that is much of a limitation.

There is nothing about it being used in out-of-combat situations that stops it from being the difference between a long duration concentration spell lasting into a second encounter or not.