Guidance Cleric cantrip is really dumb

[MarkB]

If the task isn't advancing the deity's goals, a response of "YOU DO NOT NEED MY HELP." or "STAND ON YOUR OWN TWO FEET." is entirely appropriate.

That's really campaign-dependent. In many campaigns, deities simply wouldn't have that level of individual awareness and micromanagement of their followers, let alone their followers' associates.

 

[mrpopstar]

This seems like a non-issue to me, balance-wise and rp-wise.

[MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION] said it - the Help action grants another player advantage, which is usually better than +1d4. This doesn't break the game just because it might be underutilized by players. I don't see how saying "I cast guidance" affects the immersion/feel of the game any more so then saying "I Help."

Numbers and adjudication aside, "I help" and "I cast guidance" are very different approaches to shaping the narrative.

Is it really that much of a stretch to consider how one or the other might affect the immersion/feel of the game given context?

 

[Tony Vargas]

I don't see how saying "I cast guidance" affects the immersion/feel of the game any more so then saying "I Help."

Y'know, it could be the Touch range as much as anything that crosses the line.

A cleric praying for you when you do something difficult or dangerous shouldn't seem out of place.

 

[Uller]

This is one thing I was gonna suggest to the OP - don't let Guidance apply if it's cast after the check is called for. I'm not sure if it will actually help though, because it might just lead the cleric to casting it even more, "just to be sure."

So it will be less "immersion breaking" for the cleric to interrupt with "I cast guidance!" or "may the light of Wohoshivitz guide you!" everytime another player is declaring an action?

That seems like it would be decidedly worse.

 

[iserith]

Numbers and adjudication aside, "I help" and "I cast guidance" are very different approaches to shaping the narrative.

Is it really that much of a stretch to consider how one or the other might affect the immersion/feel of the game given context?

Personally, I consider all claims of "immersion breaking" to be invalid until the person making the claim defines what he or she means by "immersion." Because if you ask 10 different people what they mean by that, it's likely there will be a number of different answers. Often I find objections to something based on "immersion!" are really something other than that.

 

[Uller]

Personally, I consider all claims of "immersion breaking" to be invalid until the person making the claim defines what he or she means by "immersion." Because if you ask 10 different people what they mean by that, it's likely there will be a number of different answers. Often I find objections to something based on "immersion!" are really something other than that.

Agree.

If you are reading a fantasy novel and every other paragraph the priest character is reciting some prayer it would break emmersion. If instead the author relates a few early instances that the chaplain is praying for his comrades and that it helps them overcome obstacles it would be eatablished with no need to revisit it very often or at all. Likewise at a D&D table players just say "l do X" for at will, no cost abilities all the time because it's a game.

Why single out guidance?

 

[Satyrn]

So it will be less "immersion breaking" for the cleric to interrupt with "I cast guidance!" or "may the light of Wohoshivitz guide you!" everytime another player is declaring an action?

That seems like it would be decidedly worse.

I thought I was clearly suggesting that it was decidedly worse.

Maybe it's because most of us here don't criticize our own advice immediately after offering a suggestion that you didn't notice me saying that "I'm not sure if it will actually help though, because it might just lead [to this lousy outcome]"

 

[Li Shenron]

That doesn't seem like a helpful solution. By creating a new set of specific constraints on how and when the cantrip can be used, you're going to cause more out-of-character questions and debate, and potentially more arguments as to whether it's applicable to a particular task. How is it useful to have the DM allow Guidance on one lockpicking check, but disallow it on the next, based essentially on a whim?

Let's not base it on a whim then. Let's say that all lock picking checks takes 2 minutes at least, and so Guidance doesn't help with them OR that they all take 30 seconds and thus Guidance helps.

Maybe lockpicking is too much arbitrary and makes for a bad example.

Other skills are easier to estimate naturally how long they take. Climbing time depends mostly on height, stealth depends roughly on distance covered etc. Social conversations usually takes minutes at least. It's not about "whim".

 

[5ekyu]

Agree.

If you are reading a fantasy novel and every other paragraph the priest character is reciting some prayer it would break emmersion. If instead the author relates a few early instances that the chaplain is praying for his comrades and that it helps them overcome obstacles it would be eatablished with no need to revisit it very often or at all. Likewise at a D&D table players just say "l do X" for at will, no cost abilities all the time because it's a game.

Why single out guidance?

Even more... look at the solutions....

Restrict it to thematic divine limits... the fuss every time option IMO... So, if i read this right, a law divine Dm cull (i mean cull as in cut out part of the spell use) will not let guidance apply to the thief picking locks check... but maybe a use of nehance ability to help out is fine cuz, you know, it not about balance but about roleplaying... likewise if the thief fails the trap check and gets hurt, the cure spells or poison cleanse is also fine cuz its not about balance... its about immersion.

As soon as the Gm decides that clerics have to somehow pre-justify their cantrips and up for every use based on their Gms interpretation of the appropriateness of the casting like some call your divine insurance carrier for pre-approval... my bet is thats how fast you start heading back towards "who is forced to run a cleric this campaign?"

or then again, maybe that whole "does it fit you god to cast this" is only an immersion and frustration thing for... one cantrip?????

of course it could be fun... "you worship a cleric of war so... nope, warmonger not gonna let you get better results on your persuasion check to make peace cuz hey, you oughta just kill them instead and BTW nope, the hold person not gonna fly against their big bad wardog guy cuz you should be fighting him, not freezing him."

Could be especially fun if you choose to worship a fertility god - all spells limited to only those roles would make for very interesting roleplaying options.

 

[Li Shenron]

Personally, I consider all claims of "immersion breaking" to be invalid until the person making the claim defines what he or she means by "immersion." Because if you ask 10 different people what they mean by that, it's likely there will be a number of different answers. Often I find objections to something based on "immersion!" are really something other than that.

It doesn't really matter what 10 other people say... the OP says that it bothers HIM, and that's why he started the thread asking for help.

So if you want to help, make your suggestions.

What are you going to achieve instead by saying that the OP's discomfort is invalid?