D&D 5E Might&Magic: the linear fighter and the exponential wizard

[Garthanos]

I think this is going to vary tremendously from game to game and isn't nearly as bad as previous editions (well, pre 4E anyway). I remember hitting level 15 or so in 3.5 and suddenly my fighter who was pretty amazing soon just sat their making sure the wizard/cleric got their turn. He became a support character to help carry the pagoda of the almighty casters.

I think that happened around level 9 in 1e

 

[Tony Vargas]

Again, this supers comparison.

Why do people think D&D is a supers game when it's a fantasy game?

Because some of the classes are supers?

Though, really, super-heroes were in a sense a 20th century update of fairy tales, myth and epics, as were science-fiction and fantasy, in different ways.

I think that happened around level 9 in 1e

That upper limit of the 'sweet' spot has always varied with edition and with group. I always used to say 3-7 was the sweet spot for 1e, but it could easily have gone as high as 11, if it was only 6th level spells that freaked you out - 5th level included some doosies, though. My old 3e group managed to hold campaigns together as high as 10th or 12th before it became that obvious, but we never once used Polymorph, not that it was banned, just an unspoken 'we're not going there,' so 7th would have been more typical, and E6 style play could fix that. 5e, I think, makes it clear that there's a designed-in sweet spot, that you're supposed to dash through Apprentice Tier quickly to get there as the exp needed to level increases relative to the standard encounter, then linger for a while until the double-digits when the pace of leveling again increases.

 

[LapBandit]

It's not the wizard's fault in the end. It's that magic is too easy to come by, too powerful, and without drawback. That's a problem with the entire system, not just a single class.

Instead of changing the entire system, I simply buff classes and PCs who have the least magic, with Fighters suffering the worst at higher levels 13+.

 

[CapnZapp]

Because some of the classes are supers?

No, what I mean is: don't compare the game to supers.

That just sets expectations the game isn't meant to meet.

 

[Tony Vargas]

No, what I mean is: don't compare the game to supers.

That just sets expectations the game isn't meant to meet.

In 3.x we could build some of the X-Men as Sorcers, the expectations been out there a while.

 

[CapnZapp]

In 3.x we could build some of the X-Men as Sorcers, the expectations been out there a while.

And it remains useless since it sets you up for disappointment.

 

[Tony Vargas]

And it remains useless since it sets you up for disappointment.

Depends on the kind of 'super' you want. If there're spells that cover the 'superpower' set you're looking for, you can probably get what you want, with added versatility to spare - even with a sorcerer you may end up with more spells known than you need to cover it.

 

[CapnZapp]

Depends on the kind of 'super' you want. If there're spells that cover the 'superpower' set you're looking for, you can probably get what you want, with added versatility to spare - even with a sorcerer you may end up with more spells known than you need to cover it.

Now you've completely changed subject.

I am not talking about sorcerers. I was commenting on the sentiment that the D&D fighter should totally do Thor stunts.

What I am saying is: D&D is not a supers game - expecting a fighter to pull off supers stunts sets you up for disappointment.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Maybe you need to play a supers game to get it out of your system...? [emoji6]

Maybe lol. Or maybe D&D can have non-casters and casters emulate the same genre. Right now we have super casters and weaksauce non-casters. Gandalf lobbed like 6 spells total and they mostly sucked. THAT's the kind of character to adventure alongside Boromir. If we're playing a game of magic superheroics, the martials should be superheroes too.

So this really leaves us with two choices. Nerf magic to the point that it's balanced against someone shackled by reality is the first option. I'd suggest basically halving caster progression for a start, so that 5th/6th level spells are what you're casting at 20th level. Alternately if magic is to remain powerful it needs to be risky/slow. You can have your fight ending control spells, they just take several rounds to build energy for. Or you can try and push them faster with risk to your life/sanity. I think D&D is the only game where magic works easily and more reliably than my friggin phone service.

Alternately, we make the martial characters the equivalent of their magical peers through superhuman stunts. Since the genie is out of the bottle in terms of magic power, we need to elevate martial characters up there in utility and awesomeness. A level 3 wizard gets to create a personal pocket dimension for 8 hours. A level 3 fighter gets to crit one time more out of every 20 swings and a +1 on unskilled Str/Dex/Con checks... "remarkable" my ass.


If someone wants to play a crappy reality based fighter, they can just not level theirs up. I'm tired of the wizard player getting to be arbiter of what the fighter gets to do because of their limited imagination.

 

[Tony Vargas]

So this really leaves us with two choices. Nerf magic to the point that it's balanced against someone shackled by reality is the first option. I'd suggest basically halving caster progression for a start, so that 5th/6th level spells are what you're casting at 20th level. Alternately if magic is to remain powerful it needs to be risky/slow.

Actually, I've been thinking lately that could be a viable idea, you just have to put what really counts on the line: control of your character. If wizards risk insanity (loss of the character as you become a mad recluse or lich or something) and warlocks risk their souls (becoming pawns of diabolic forces) and Sorcerers risk transformation into an inhuman something from their bloodline (becoming a monster, no longer under the players control), then spells can be powerful, because you won't dare use them often - daily limit or no.

Alternately, magic could be shackled by reality - that is, it isn't real, it's all tricks, poorly-understood chemistry experiments, mass hysteria, grain ergot, and bluff - or, maybe at the outside, illusions.

Alternately, we make the martial characters the equivalent of their magical peers through superhuman stunts. Since the genie is out of the bottle in terms of magic power, we need to elevate martial characters up there in utility and awesomeness. .

Or meet somewhere in the middle: nerf magic down to genre levels and pull non-magical characters up to genre levels.

I am not talking about sorcerers. I was commenting on the sentiment that the D&D fighter should totally do Thor stunts.

What I am saying is: D&D is not a supers game - expecting a fighter to pull off supers stunts sets you up for disappointment.

Yet expecting a caster to pull off supers stunts (as long as you don't mind being able to pull off a lot more besides) is OK. That's an issue, and one directly related to the topic of this thread, too.