D&D 5E MTOF: Devil's Advocates --- The Case for Lawful Evil

[Aguirre Melchiors]

Me either. Sure it sounds like fun to be able to KILL ALL; TAKE STUFF with no conscience or concern for anybody else (except the rest of the group) - for a while. There is no overall goal or purpose to it. If you are successful enough, you become the target of meddling powerful Heroes who want you dead. Or worse - they want to torment you for the rest of your natural life, trying to persuade you to repent and convert into something against your essential nature: another hero!

D&D does not have a 2018 morality.
There are gray areas, but mostly is good vs evil. (Archetypical ones)

 

[TheCosmicKid]

My personal take, which was partly inspired by a desire to justify the concept of maintaining a Balance between Good and Evil, is that "Good" and "Evil" are abstractions of the forces of Positive and Negative Energy.

I thought MToF did a good job of explaining Mordenkainen's philosophy of the Balance as a sort of pessimistic utilitarianism. He tries to prevent the angels from inflicting too much damage on the devils not because he believes in an equilibrium between good and evil per se, but because in the long run, weakening the devils would allow the demons to run rampant, causing much much more damage than they already do. I see no reason for him to think that allowing the angels to win everything would be similarly disastrous. It's more like he doesn't entertain the angels winning everything as a serious possibility, and believes that the act of trying to win is more likely to fail and make things worse than it is to succeed.

(MToF also does not shy away from suggesting the possibility that the philosophy of the Balance is sometimes just the rationalization of a selfish jerk.)

I feel this gives philosophies of intentional Neutrality more of a reason to exist.

But at what cost? You've reconceptualized "Good" as having a "similar goal" to that of "Evil". You've described this goal as preservation of the self and destruction of the other. And you've used scare quotes for "Good" and "Evil" throughout. Don't any of these things suggest to you that you might no longer actually be talking about a cosmic struggle between right and wrong?

EDIT: To clarify my point, I don't think it's necessary to make any dramatic adjustments to the nature of good and evil in order to give intentional neutrality a reason to exist. In short, good has optimism, hope, faith that the world can be changed for the better. Neutrality does not, and therefore preserves the status quo.

 

[Herosmith14]

I'll be frank. I am an absolute sucker for redemption archs. This thread has kind of inspired me to have a possibility for all devils to actually have good in their hearts.

Before this, I had kind of been focusing on Zariel, because, even if she is supplanted in later generations, I'll probably keep he canonically the ruler of Avernus. The lore on her made her sound like someone cast out from their home order for doing what she believed to be right, and now is still trying to protect her old family and countless other innocents from within the ranks of a darker power.

I've actually considered making a character sometime that is either a conquest Paladin or oathbreaker, or a fiendlock sworn to Zariel that actually is good, but recognizes the aforementioned naïveté of the angels in not realizing that if the devils are gone, the demons will overrun everything, and is spending their life fighting things as a mortal, and expects to spend their afterlife fighting to protect all planes as a devil in the blood war.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

I'll be frank. I am an absolute sucker for redemption archs. This thread has kind of inspired me to have a possibility for all devils to actually have good in their hearts.

Before this, I had kind of been focusing on Zariel, because, even if she is supplanted in later generations, I'll probably keep he canonically the ruler of Avernus. The lore on her made her sound like someone cast out from their home order for doing what she believed to be right, and now is still trying to protect her old family and countless other innocents from within the ranks of a darker power.

I've actually considered making a character sometime that is either a conquest Paladin or oathbreaker, or a fiendlock sworn to Zariel that actually is good, but recognizes the aforementioned naïveté of the angels in not realizing that if the devils are gone, the demons will overrun everything, and is spending their life fighting things as a mortal, and expects to spend their afterlife fighting to protect all planes as a devil in the blood war.

Remember Mordenkainen's take on the matter: "Do not pity the fallen angel. Fallen angels survive the fall. How many other souls did Zariel bring down with her?"