Sage Advice: Plane and world hopping (includes how Eberron and Ravnica fit in D&D cosmology)

[Kobold Avenger]

I thought Planescape implied no one actually knew the "truth" about the planes...

It does, and it's why I've been constantly bringing up the postmodernism of that setting. As that's generally a Postmodern idea that no-one has the truth or that the truth is subjective.

 

[Imaro]

It does, and it's why I've been constantly bringing up the postmodernism of that setting. As that's generally a Postmodern idea that no-one has the truth or that the truth is subjective.

Yeah for a second I thought maybe I was mis-remembering or they had changed the setting in ways I was unaware of. With so many posters claiming Planescape locks all the other settings into a true cosmology I was starting to wonder if they've actually read the Planescape material. The sage in Sigil could be just as right or wrong (even depending on the particular day or time) as the sage on Eberron... It's one of the reasons I find the Planescape setting liberating as opposed to confining.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I'm pretty sure it's necessary because they're going to release material which originates from newer settings (like warforged), and they don't want the default mode to be "You can't play a warforged in Forgotten Realms, that's an Eberron thing". They want to set up the D&D multiverse as inclusive of everything they release, but still maintain the bulk of their former character, so they make the isolated settings have only the most tenuous connections to the greater multiverse. DMs who prefer the "disconnected" mode are simply encouraged to rule that those connections don't exist for their games.

You can certainly argue that "no sharing material across settings" should be the default if you so desire, but I think that ship has sailed.

Wouldn't it be far easier to find a place for warforged to exist within Faerun than it would be to insist that all warforged come from Eberron and that a warforged in Faerun had to be thrown through some space-time rift to exist in this world?

Heck, I've got a spot for them in my world ever since I had an ancient wizard semi-immortal being doing soul experiments and creating golems with soul cores powered by his victims. Someone else could clearly work from the same principles (if they found his notes) and do things such as create mechanical bodies to give the terminally ill a second chance at life. Far more interesting in my mind than "I copied and pasted from Eberron via spelljammers"

Yeah for a second I thought maybe I was mis-remembering or they had changed the setting in ways I was unaware of. With so many posters claiming Planescape locks all the other settings into a true cosmology I was starting to wonder if they've actually read the Planescape material. The sage in Sigil could be just as right or wrong (even depending on the particular day or time) as the sage on Eberron... It's one of the reasons I find the Planescape setting liberating as opposed to confining.

Is the same true of Spelljammer? Cause I've been talking about both interchangeably in this regard (And I would find it incredibly weird almost to the point of pointlessness to say that reality shifts that drastically on a regular basis. Also... is it much better that things change so much that they are completely unknowable? Seems kind of a grim in terms of "science")

 

[cbwjm]

The Forgotten Realms has Gondsmen which could be modelled with warforged. Different name, perhaps more clockwork than magitech, but it should still fit the setting well enough.

 

[Imaro]

Wouldn't it be far easier to find a place for warforged to exist within Faerun than it would be to insist that all warforged come from Eberron and that a warforged in Faerun had to be thrown through some space-time rift to exist in this world?

I guess that would depend on how well or how horrible FR fans thought you integrated them... of course using portals to other worlds (one of the oldest staples in the fantasy genre) you get to avoid all that messiness.

Heck, I've got a spot for them in my world ever since I had an ancient wizard semi-immortal being doing soul experiments and creating golems with soul cores powered by his victims. Someone else could clearly work from the same principles (if they found his notes) and do things such as create mechanical bodies to give the terminally ill a second chance at life. Far more interesting in my mind than "I copied and pasted from Eberron via spelljammers"

Yes but you are the only person your homebrew solution has to please.

Is the same true of Spelljammer?

Not sure I never got into Spelljammer back in the day because of it's more humorous tone... it just didn't vibe well with what I wanted in a setting... I was more of a Dark Sun/Planescape fan.

Cause I've been talking about both interchangeably in this regard...

They are different settings though... not sure lumping them together does anything but make it more confusing in discussion.

... (And I would find it incredibly weird almost to the point of pointlessness to say that reality shifts that drastically on a regular basis. Also... is it much better that things change so much that they are completely unknowable? Seems kind of a grim in terms of "science")

The point is your character doesn't know for sure if reality shifts every day, once a millennia or never (in other words the Planescape setting leaves this type of question up to the DM, who can choose to answer or not answer it as he sees fit). So no things don't change so much that they are completely unknowable... it's that the true nature of the multiverse, all planes of existence, alternate worlds, heavens, hells, etc are just not known with complete certainty and objective correctness by anyone. I think it's pretty silly to think something like all the planes of existence would be perfectly known, succinctly explained and meticulously cataloged much less easily comprehended and conceptualized. even in most science fiction this type of knowledge about a single universe or galaxy, much less all of reality, is incomplete and there are usually fringes at the edge of the galaxy that are not completely known or mapped... why would one expect more from a medieval-esque society?

 

[delericho]

Is the same true of Spelljammer?

Somewhat. Spelljammer posits some key facts that apply to all connected settings - that there are other planets out there, that they (almost all) follow broadly circular orbits about something (not necessarily a sun), that systems are encased in Crystal Spheres, and that the Spheres are then connected.

The key difference, though, is that Spelljammer says almost nothing about the planar cosmologies - it leaves the door open for Krynnspace to be connected to a completely different set of planes to Greyspace, for instance. And since most settings are much less likely to talk about what lies beyond the moons than they are to talk about planes, gods, and the associated mythologies, there's less likely to be a contradiction - just things that have thus far not been mentioned.

 

[Bitbrain]

Wouldn't it be far easier to find a place for warforged to exist within Faerun than it would be to insist that all warforged come from Eberron and that a warforged in Faerun had to be thrown through some space-time rift to exist in this world?

according to The Mighty Gluestick YouTube channel, Warforged do have a place on Faerun: most are the creation of gnomes from Lantan, although a small number originate from Thay.

 

[Coroc]

I ask myself right atm, do we all put to much energy into this sorts of discussion?
Thing is, it is hard enough to make players remember the more "ordinary" peaces of lore which could eventually be "important" to the campaign.

For the DM, and I do not exclude myself, especially if some one DMs more than one setting, it is of course highly satisfying to have an "on demand"- explanation how everything and all fits together even with different setting worlds (ups I nearly wrote primes here just remembering that Sigil e.g. is not prime).

Otoh I often have much more trouble (to satisfy my need for some form of consistency throughout a setting) to explain more common things:
- How come mob A and mob B (peaceful folk A / B) occupy the same area without killing each other
- How is the economic needs of an e.g. big city taken care for? Is there enough surrounding area to support *how many* people? Is there magic involved in e.g. food creation?
What is the life standard? If someone is injured is there a healer / shaman / cleric around? How deep does that go? Will he resurrect a farmer who had an accident (if the price is right?)?
- What tech level is available?
- How common is magic?

etc. etc.

You see the standard setting creation rules bother me, even if I use some premade material and homebrew around on this.

So now you might ask : How common is planar travel and in what form?

Then I answer you: I care about that one (if it comes up at all) once my player characters are about 12th level or so (unless I want to send them straight to hell at some point before)

These issues are easiest thing to refit !!! Why? Because no one sees them until they become relevant. No one (in game) might know about them until they are relevant. If some sage knows about this It is not given he would share that knowledge freely / to the PCs.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I guess that would depend on how well or how horrible FR fans thought you integrated them... of course using portals to other worlds (one of the oldest staples in the fantasy genre) you get to avoid all that messiness.

Yes but you are the only person your homebrew solution has to please.

I'm not sure it avoids any messiness, it just creates a different type of mess. And I agree my homebrew works for me and not necessarily anyone else, but if they were well integrated (why assume they'll botch it) it would seem to work better than simply "portal shenagins"

I mean, think about the table. A wandering Knight of Cormyr, a Sage from Candlekeep, A street Urchin from Baldur's Gate, and a Soldier of the Last war who fell through a portal to a strange new world where nothing is like they know it. No RP hooks unless we tie in planar travel from level one, no former contacts unless we brought in more than one person from Eberron. I'm not saying it can't be fun and interesting, but the last few times I saw someone pulling "I'm here because of a portal across dimensions" it ended either not mattering or being a pain in the butt.

They are different settings though... not sure lumping them together does anything but make it more confusing in discussion.

But they both create a "meta-setting" overtop of the normal settings of DnD to allow consistent and easy travel between those settings if you are "in the know". Sure they are different, but in that one aspect they are the same and that has been the thrust of the conversation

The point is your character doesn't know for sure if reality shifts every day, once a millennia or never (in other words the Planescape setting leaves this type of question up to the DM, who can choose to answer or not answer it as he sees fit). So no things don't change so much that they are completely unknowable... it's that the true nature of the multiverse, all planes of existence, alternate worlds, heavens, hells, etc are just not known with complete certainty and objective correctness by anyone. I think it's pretty silly to think something like all the planes of existence would be perfectly known, succinctly explained and meticulously cataloged much less easily comprehended and conceptualized. even in most science fiction this type of knowledge about a single universe or galaxy, much less all of reality, is incomplete and there are usually fringes at the edge of the galaxy that are not completely known or mapped... why would one expect more from a medieval-esque society?

Why should we not expect that Gods, Fiends, and Celestials cannot fully know the extent of their realms?

Medieval maps were far from accurate by today's standards, but they covered the landmasses decently well, well enough to know truths about. And in DnD we have lots of things which would make mapping easier. Immortals (or people with lifespans in the hundreds of years) who could take the time to travel these places, magic to allow the mapmaker to literally get a bird's eye view, ect.

Sure, places are more dangerous, but it can be a reasonable assumption that maps are of at least adequate quality.

And sure, some places of the planes no one cares enough to explore. Who cares how big the plane of fire is, it is pretty much all fire except for a handful of locations. But whether or not the City of Sigil exists, that's a pretty cut and dry question. And yet, there are settings where it is never mentioned, and different places take over that role.

Somewhat. Spelljammer posits some key facts that apply to all connected settings - that there are other planets out there, that they (almost all) follow broadly circular orbits about something (not necessarily a sun), that systems are encased in Crystal Spheres, and that the Spheres are then connected.

The key difference, though, is that Spelljammer says almost nothing about the planar cosmologies - it leaves the door open for Krynnspace to be connected to a completely different set of planes to Greyspace, for instance. And since most settings are much less likely to talk about what lies beyond the moons than they are to talk about planes, gods, and the associated mythologies, there's less likely to be a contradiction - just things that have thus far not been mentioned.

Okay, between the two ("we are talking space not planes so who cares" and "nothing can possibly be known for certain") Spelljammer sounds like the easier to integrate into other settings.

according to The Mighty Gluestick YouTube channel, Warforged do have a place on Faerun: most are the creation of gnomes from Lantan, although a small number originate from Thay.

I agree that that is what I would say about them. Especially since I know Lantan was destroyed "recently" and the warforged could have been spending time rebuilding sections of it. It isn't like a lot of people officially got to a place that has been wiped off the map.

 

[Imaro]

I'm not sure it avoids any messiness, it just creates a different type of mess. And I agree my homebrew works for me and not necessarily anyone else, but if they were well integrated (why assume they'll botch it) it would seem to work better than simply "portal shenagins"

I'm not assuming they'll botch it but even excluding the purists who aren't going to like them adding anything Eberron to FR I think it's highly unlikely they'll hit everyone's "like" button with however they would choose to integrate it unless it's easily removable/ignored and then why go through the trouble? And again "portal shenanigans" are a pretty old and ingrained trope of fantasy.

I mean, think about the table. A wandering Knight of Cormyr, a Sage from Candlekeep, A street Urchin from Baldur's Gate, and a Soldier of the Last war who fell through a portal to a strange new world where nothing is like they know it. No RP hooks unless we tie in planar travel from level one, no former contacts unless we brought in more than one person from Eberron. I'm not saying it can't be fun and interesting, but the last few times I saw someone pulling "I'm here because of a portal across dimensions" it ended either not mattering or being a pain in the butt.

Of course you are assuming the warforged arrived in Faerun on day one of the campaign? Why?

But they both create a "meta-setting" overtop of the normal settings of DnD to allow consistent and easy travel between those settings if you are "in the know". Sure they are different, but in that one aspect they are the same and that has been the thrust of the conversation

Eh, I find the how and why to be important enoug to make the distinction, if you don't that's fine we can just agree to disagree.

Why should we not expect that Gods, Fiends, and Celestials cannot fully know the extent of their realms?

Because they are neither omniscient nor omnipotent.

Medieval maps were far from accurate by today's standards, but they covered the landmasses decently well, well enough to know truths about. And in DnD we have lots of things which would make mapping easier. Immortals (or people with lifespans in the hundreds of years) who could take the time to travel these places, magic to allow the mapmaker to literally get a bird's eye view, ect.

You also have illusion magic, mind warping magic, creatures that can devastate and drastically change continents and worlds in a matter of days, planes whose nature is malleable, and so on...

Sure, places are more dangerous, but it can be a reasonable assumption that maps are of at least adequate quality.

For certain places yes... for the entirety of creation, I'm not buying it.

And sure, some places of the planes no one cares enough to explore. Who cares how big the plane of fire is, it is pretty much all fire except for a handful of locations. But whether or not the City of Sigil exists, that's a pretty cut and dry question. And yet, there are settings where it is never mentioned, and different places take over that role.

Whether Sigil exists and whether it is known by any particular person or group of people (or for that matter believed to truly exist) are entirely different questions. Though I'm a little confused about different places that take over it's role... what exactly is Sigil's role and what other places take over it in other settings?