D&D 5E On Saving Throws (a Monster Manual Analysis)

[FormerlyHemlock]

Eh, Feeblemind is an obvious exception, but it's also an 8th level spell. That's not the kind of thing most parties are going to be going up against very often, and when it is encounters, Greater Restoration isn't to hard to have available. The rest of the Int saves generally deal with illusions.

I'd rather have a crap Int save and risk a bad Feeblemind encounter way down the road than a bad Wis save and constantly worry about being dominated or feared or whatever from the very first level.

Feeblemind, yes, but also Intellect Devourers starting at CR 2.

Greater Restoration may or may not be available, and if it is then all manner of failed saves are moot--not just brain drain.

Furthermore, failing to overcome an illusion will, if roleplayed correctly, be more debilitating than merely being frightened or charmed. Wasting your best spells/Action Surges on a Pit Fiend which turns out to be an illusion is worse than attacking a real foe at disadvantage.

Sent from my Moto G Play using EN World mobile app

 

[Erechel]

Le sigh. This fallacy again.

<rest of rant not directed at anyone in particular>

You're effectively assuming a campaign will have the same distribution as a campaign where each and every monster appears once, and that's just not true.

I acknowledge the temptation, but this really does not end up anywhere near the numbers you need to draw the conclusions you do.

Heck, I could whip up a campaign where Intelligence is, by far, the most resisted stat, and you would not be able to say there was anything wrong with that campaign whatsoever.

There simply is no correlation between the fact that X percent of Monster Manual monsters are good at Int saves, and the fact that Y percent of Joe's campaign's monsters are good at Int saves.

None.

To pull that off, you need to assign each and every monster a weight rating - how common is that monster. For instance, a Goblin is surely a much more commonly encountered monster than an Aboleth. So in a hypothetical two-monster Manual you can't just count Goblin once and Aboleth once and then claim Int saves count for 50% of monsters and Dex saves 50%, so Fireball and Feeblemind are bad spells to bring.

Sure we could then fight over those ratings, but you would at least have something resembling real statistics.

Oh, for God's sake. You make one work about a particular thing (saying that there is no conclusion yet) and someone puts itself in a pedestal and complains about it saying "this is an incomplete work". OF COURSE is incomplete. I've said it in the very beginning. This is a test about how much true it is, not a conclusion. Also, if you could at least take the work of reading the post, you would NOTICE THAT IT IS THE SAME THING I'VE SAID. That's why I've said that much of the saves are scattered or concentrated. A thing that I've already clarified in my other comments in this very post. That's the very reason because I've grouped the saves in clusters and I've said that most Dexterity Saving throws are concentrated on very high CR monsters, such as legendary dragons and beholders, same as the Wisdom saves (a 32 percent of the wisdom saves -22 of the 68- alone are to avoid a specific trait: Frightful Presence, which only Legendary Dragons and the Tarrasque have.

I've also said that most Strength saves are from early common monsters, such as wolves and beasts, creatures with low CR who also are often mounts of common creatures such as goblins and orcs and knights. And I've also said that Intelligence saves are concentrated on Psionics (mind flayers, intellect devourers and psychic oozes), with dire effects. And I also said that Constitution saving throws are commonplace and scattered over the book. I took the ing work of GROUPING TRAITS, such as Lair Actions (sufficiently uncommon feature that only bosses will have), to know how much frequency could possibly one particular save will have.

I AM FIGHTING THE FALLACY, PAL.

But if you want to make a "more complete" work to "shut me up", there is nothing stopping you. Grab the Monster Manual. Grab the Volo's Guide to Monsters. Begin to count. Begin to separate in clusters of CR. I've done most of the job for you: you already know that a third of wisdom saves come from one particular trait that monsters above CR 13 have: Frightful Presence. You can read the post I've made to save you work. You can even might want to grab also the published adventures to know which monsters are more common, so to have a better rounded number.

 

[Bishop_]

You can even might want to grab also the published adventures to know which monsters are more common, so to have a better rounded number.

I think this would be very welcomed. Even one (like CoS) or more modular yet, like the Yawning Portal.

Anyways, great job [MENTION=6784868]Erechel[/MENTION]

 

[ClaytonCross]

Its interesting. Seems like a Fighter with Resilient Wisdom would be a head of the game.... I do wonder if you separate into 3 groups lvl 1-10, lvl 11-15, and level 16-20 does that trend stay consistent or do stronger saves change as you level? For example Inelegance is a rare save, but a higher levels its a sink or swim effect usually and without lvl 1-15 saves on enemies you worry less about a higher levels, the total number of saves (particularly for single enemy boss fights) would drop significantly.

So I wander if there is a different king of saves if your in a lvl 16-20 group fighting a single enemy boss when save perhaps matter most and encounters are at their most deadly.

 

[Erechel]

Its interesting. Seems like a Fighter with Resilient Wisdom would be a head of the game.... I do wonder if you separate into 3 groups lvl 1-10, lvl 11-15, and level 16-20 does that trend stay consistent or do stronger saves change as you level? For example Inelegance is a rare save, but a higher levels its a sink or swim effect usually and without lvl 1-15 saves on enemies you worry less about a higher levels, the total number of saves (particularly for single enemy boss fights) would drop significantly.

So I wander if there is a different king of saves if your in a lvl 16-20 group fighting a single enemy boss when save perhaps matter most and encounters are at their most deadly.

A fighter is already ahead of the game as it is, as well as the Barbarian. Furthermore having the Resilient feature. Wisdom resilience is overkill, and also very possible for a fighter.

 

[ClaytonCross]

A fighter is already ahead of the game as it is, as well as the Barbarian. Furthermore having the Resilient feature. Wisdom resilience is overkill, and also very possible for a fighter.

This was relevant to me because we did a one-shot level 20 game and I actually Had a fighter with Spellguard Shield, Ring of Protection, and Cloak of Protection so I thought... Hay I will go with wisdom and see how this plays out... We fought an ancient dragon and a number of homebrew caster "actolytes" with Chain lighting... I very quickly realized I missed the Shield Master feat I was planning on taking. So while I am sure this is not the normal I actually think the threat of Dexterity saves is real at high level because of the love of dragons and specific spells a "standard gm fall backs" in a pinch. If your GM doesn't have a lot of time to plan a short notice game like say for a Typhoon hitting Japan trapping you and your friends inside... then your more likely to see those lower level dex save spells and abilities because you use what you already know when in a hurry. That one wisdom save I actually had to make for Frightening presence I failed anyway on the first turn... directly fallowed by a dragon breath which made me want the dex save again. (I did not go pure fighter though, I was a sorcerer hybrid ShadowBlade at lvl5 + booming blade + quickenspell, so perhaps as full fighter I would have used the ASI and taken both Resilient and Shield Master)

... It was a one shot "can you survive and kill a god?" ... kind of thing... stupid typhoon killed the GMs power though so I guess we will never know....

 

[Erechel]

This was relevant to me because we did a one-shot level 20 game and I actually Had a fighter with Spellguard Shield, Ring of Protection, and Cloak of Protection so I thought... Hay I will go with wisdom and see how this plays out... We fought an ancient dragon and a number of homebrew caster "actolytes" with Chain lighting... I very quickly realized I missed the Shield Master feat I was planning on taking. So while I am sure this is not the normal I actually think the threat of Dexterity saves is real at high level because of the love of dragons and specific spells a "standard gm fall backs" in a pinch. If your GM doesn't have a lot of time to plan a short notice game like say for a Typhoon hitting Japan trapping you and your friends inside... then your more likely to see those lower level dex save spells and abilities because you use what you already know when in a hurry. That one wisdom save I actually had to make for Frightening presence I failed anyway on the first turn... directly fallowed by a dragon breath which made me want the dex save again. (I did not go pure fighter though, I was a sorcerer hybrid ShadowBlade at lvl5 + booming blade + quickenspell, so perhaps as full fighter I would have used the ASI and taken both Resilient and Shield Master)

... It was a one shot "can you survive and kill a god?" ... kind of thing... stupid typhoon killed the GMs power though so I guess we will never know....

Fighters also have Indomitable, which allows you to reroll a failed save, and the sheer amount of ASI allows you both to Max out your main and secondary stats and also have a few feats. Multiclass is usually worse than single class, unless you make it right. You still lose the cap abilities, like the fighter's 4th attack, an ASI and the second Action Surge and Indomitable use. If you waste 5 levels in another class, you are subpar as a fighter, gaining some versatility but not as much.

If I would make a fighter with spells, I would choose the Eldritch Knight instead, and perhaps use an ASI to have either Magic Apprentice or Ritual Caster.

Also, as you said, yes, Dex becomes more important at higher levels, because most of the monsters that require Dex saves are Legendary Dragons, and are Tier 4. Still, if a battle has minions, and they aren't custom monsters, it probably has Strength and Constitution saves. Keep in mind that the dragons aren't only Dex saves, but Con too.

 

[ClaytonCross]

Fighters also have Indomitable, which allows you to reroll a failed save, and the sheer amount of ASI allows you both to Max out your main and secondary stats and also have a few feats. Multiclass is usually worse than single class, unless you make it right. You still lose the cap abilities, like the fighter's 4th attack, an ASI and the second Action Surge and Indomitable use. If you waste 5 levels in another class, you are subpar as a fighter, gaining some versatility but not as much.

If I would make a fighter with spells, I would choose the Eldritch Knight instead, and perhaps use an ASI to have either Magic Apprentice or Ritual Caster.

Also, as you said, yes, Dex becomes more important at higher levels, because most of the monsters that require Dex saves are Legendary Dragons, and are Tier 4. Still, if a battle has minions, and they aren't custom monsters, it probably has Strength and Constitution saves. Keep in mind that the dragons aren't only Dex saves, but Con too.

I would not say my Fighter/Sorcerer as subpar and fell in the "did it right" category... I did take out a Balor Demon in 3 turns doing 100% of the damage (Shadow blade at level 5 {4d8} + Booming Blade {3d8} x 2 for quicken spell meta magic... only to miss a higher dex save again when it exploded...but Absorb elements meant I still only took 35 damage ... but I will also admit that the bard was using hold person and our cleric healed me right after... but through out the session I was able to get away with using minimal magic so that I could dump everything I had in on the big boss... which worked out alright.

...But I digress my only real point here is that "at higher level" is perhaps a bit of misleading qualifier for judging the usefulness of saves because of minions as you mentioned and the commonality of the default caster archytype NPC means CR6 Mage, CR7 Drow Mage, and CR12 ArchMages will be more prevelent in many campaigns as "go to caster NPCs". Strength and Consitution as the most use saves represents a good statistic but perhaps a little misleading as your likely to fight strength based saves from "brute" enemies targeting a single oponenet however your common caster NPCs who are likely to use lighting and fireball spells GMs are so familiar with will likely effect everyone. This doesn't mean your wrong about strength and con saves, but it might mean that Dex is still a solid third over wisdom due to the commality of putting base casters or even homebrew casters as minions and melee support with the favored spells bein AoE spells that will frequestly cause dex saves on mutiple targets at once. I think this means while you may have more strength and consitution abilities that may trigger more often, your more likely to have Fireballs, Lighting bolt, and even traps as dex saves hitting mutiple party members so the number of dex saves per trigger will tend to behigher dramaticly increasing its usefulness. The perseptions of door trap is triggered, fire ball in the middle of the group... GM: "everyone make a dex save" is why "Dexterity is king"...even if not entirely true.

"Also, there is very little amount of low-end creatures that trigger Dex saves: most of them are top-notch, with a CR greater than 10. That is, they are uncommon until late levels."

 

[Erechel]

I would not say my Fighter/Sorcerer as subpar and fell in the "did it right" category... I did take out a Balor Demon in 3 turns doing 100% of the damage (Shadow blade at level 5 {4d8} + Booming Blade {3d8} x 2 for quicken spell meta magic... only to miss a higher dex save again when it exploded...but Absorb elements meant I still only took 35 damage ... but I will also admit that the bard was using hold person and our cleric healed me right after... but through out the session I was able to get away with using minimal magic so that I could dump everything I had in on the big boss... which worked out alright.

...But I digress my only real point here is that "at higher level" is perhaps a bit of misleading qualifier for judging the usefulness of saves because of minions as you mentioned and the commonality of the default caster archytype NPC means CR6 Mage, CR7 Drow Mage, and CR12 ArchMages will be more prevelent in many campaigns as "go to caster NPCs". Strength and Consitution as the most use saves represents a good statistic but perhaps a little misleading as your likely to fight strength based saves from "brute" enemies targeting a single oponenet however your common caster NPCs who are likely to use lighting and fireball spells GMs are so familiar with will likely effect everyone. This doesn't mean your wrong about strength and con saves, but it might mean that Dex is still a solid third over wisdom due to the commality of putting base casters or even homebrew casters as minions and melee support with the favored spells bein AoE spells that will frequestly cause dex saves on mutiple targets at once. I think this means while you may have more strength and consitution abilities that may trigger more often, your more likely to have Fireballs, Lighting bolt, and even traps as dex saves hitting mutiple party members so the number of dex saves per trigger will tend to behigher dramaticly increasing its usefulness. The perseptions of door trap is triggered, fire ball in the middle of the group... GM: "everyone make a dex save" is why "Dexterity is king"...even if not entirely true.

"Also, there is very little amount of low-end creatures that trigger Dex saves: most of them are top-notch, with a CR greater than 10. That is, they are uncommon until late levels."

I understand what you are saying, but it is highly campaign (and GM) dependant. But also a spellcaster could cast Dex, Con, Int, Wis or Strength saves, and in my experience (and even what is hinted on the MM anf VGTM), mages and spellcasters aren't all that prevalent. AOE spells aren't very useful against a well-armed party. They make an average damage of 27 (fireball and lighting bolt), slightly higher if casted at upper levels (34 for a 5th level spell). A fighter will scoff at such damage, even failing the ST, and heal 15-25 from level 10 onwards as a bonus action.

They often will be elite mooks, protected by many "muscle for hire", as they are very weak, and not really able to whitstand even one round against an equivalent level fighter. Been there, done that, both as a player and as a GM.

If your campaign revolves on fighting them, well, it is obvious that Dex saves will be more common. The same if you are fighting mind flayers you are going to invest in Int saves.

Obviously, your fighter mc isn't weak. It is very hard to make an actually weak character on D&D5. But it is hardly optimized. A level 14 paladin is enough to kill a Balor in one round (tested twice in campaign). Even at 11th level, a paladin and an assassin could deal with them without much fighting (2-3 rounds). Balors are pretty weak. A level 20 fighter could make 16 attacks in 2 rounds, with a minimum damage of 96, and every hit is a 1, and I'm not counting fighting styles, feats, superiority dice or critical hits. A Balor has about 150 HP. Average DMG of a dueling fighter is 184, still without critical hits, feats or SD. And you only need a silver sword to dish out.

 

[ClaytonCross]

I understand what you are saying, but it is highly campaign (and GM) dependant. A spellcasterster could both cast Dex, Con, or Strength saves, but in my experience (and even what is hinted on the MM anf VGTM), mages and spellcasters aren't all that prevalent. They usually will be elite mooks, protected by many "muscle for hire", as they are very weak, and not really able to whitstand even one round against an equivalent level fighter. Been there, done that, both as a player and as a GM.

If your campaign revolves on fighting them, well, it is obvious that Dex saves will be more common. The same if you are fighting mind flayers you are going to invest in Int saves.

Obviously, your fighter mc isn't weak. It is very hard to make an actually weak character on D&D5. But it is hardly optimized. A level 14 paladin is enough to kill a Balor in one round (tested twice in campaign). Even at 11th level, a paladin and an assassin could deal with them without much fighting (2-3 rounds). Balors are pretty weak. A level 20 fighter could make 16 attacks in 2 rounds, with a minimum damage of 96, and every hit is a 1, and I'm not counting fighting styles, feats, superiority dice or critical hits. A Balor has about 150 HP. Average DMG of a dueling fighter is 184, still without critical hits, feats or SD. And you only need a silver sword to dish out.

Well your first paragraph is actually why my character exists... I am a sorcerer tank which is a bit unusual and with my build I am somewhat resistant to all magic, elemental damage, and can shield for an instant AC of 29, could have taken tough for the extra HP I supposed but I went with damage mitigation instead of supper high HP.

We generally have like a 5 figher 3 Caster split in higher level games. Generally one cater is like and arch mage the other two his subordinates, just as the fighters usually have 4 and a Leader. Like you said primarily as defense for the casters.

CR19 Balors standard HP is 262... while I was not doing 184 damage per round I was doing about 120 I am not complaining since it was basically one 5th level spell slot for 10 rounds of that damage. Paladins would fall apart after they ran out of spell slots to smite in a sustained dungeon like we were in... I used 3 level 5 spells slots and 3 level 1 slot prior to the final boss and dissolved a few level 4 spell to refill my sorcerer points to continue my quick casting, then at the final boss I opened up with a level 7 increasing my damage per attack by +1d8 psychic, and even getting hit I have +11 con-save with advantage from war caster and since we were around a single opponent I was getting close to 180 due to sentinel when I thought I could get away with it but since my defense depends on shield and absorb elements that was not the normal approach. Also, Silver swords would not effect a Balor any differently so I am thinking you have your monsters confused....

https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Balor#content