Cantrip Auto-Scaling - A 5e Critique

[Azzy]

Yeah, I remember having a look through the 4e errata documents, screeds of updates. I would not be surprised if 3e/3.5e were similar in length.

Not quite as bad, but still "impressive". I only found the 2e PHB errata well after I stopped playing it, and it was about on par with what we've got now.

 

[CapnZapp]

I am saying a level 1 spell cast from a level 1 spell slot is not better than a cantrip if you are at least a certain character level. I’m really not sure why I need to keep repeating this.

Honestly, I think you are needlessly gaming the argument if you argue I am avoiding to state your argument.

But nevermind:

I strongly disagree "a level 1 spell cast from a level 1 spell slot is not better than a cantrip if you are at least a certain character level" for the reasons that you prefer to skip when trying to make this an issue of being misunderstood.

A level 1 spell cast in a level 1 slot can very well be better, or at least different and therefore incomparable, than a cantrip, even if cast by a level 20 caster.

That is why I don't agree with your basic premise - that this ought to be an open and shut case. No it is not, because the case is more complex than you're letting on.

Then you claim the issue "isn't self correcting in actual play". I can't speak for your players of course, but I can say that in general I find the issue eminently self-correctable. Just don't cast the spells in the slots that make you dissatisfied compared to your cantrips - use the spells and the slots differently!

Now, whatever you do, please do not claim I am not responding to the point you are making.

 

[CapnZapp]

The best you can hope for, the absolute best, is 4d10 with a cantrip. They don't ever get any better than that.

Not to get in the way of your groove, but this is false. 4d10+20 is trivially achievable by Warlocks, for instance.

Carry on.

 

[jgsugden]

Just to toss it in there... once you hit about 11th level, I tend to find that the arcane spellcasters are using their 1st level slots for shield and absorb elements most of the time... and would do so even if they dealt a bit more damage. Even if the 1st level spells were dealing 30 damage - they would not be a great use of an action at that level and beyond. This is not universally true (my enchanter gets a bit of use out of split Tasha's - and charm person), but it is a strong tendency. Clerics, druids and bards are healing... and Warlocks, with Eldritch blast and no lower level spells, are a special case.

 

[Blue]

Not to get in the way of your groove, but this is false. 4d10+20 is trivially achievable by Warlocks, for instance.

Carry on.

Once we add in class features and feats there any many that would enhance 1st level spells as well. I think for the purposes of this we are looking at the straight cantrips.

And this goes back to the point elsewhere - everyone has at-wills so they can always contribute, and those with less limited-resource boosts get better at-wills. The warlock gets less then other full casters, so their at-wills get a bit of a boost. That is part of the class balance, not part of the cantrip balance. The cantrip, much like a weapon attack, is just the foundation the at-will contribution is built on.

 

[Blue]

Improved divine smite adds a total of 2d8 when using a spell slot to divine smite.

Changed in the last PHB Errata (Nov 2018). That has been removed. Improved Divine Smite just adds 1d8 total.

[New] Improved Divine Smite (p. 85). The last sentence has been deleted.

 

[CapnZapp]

Once we add in class features and feats there any many that would enhance 1st level spells as well. I think for the purposes of this we are looking at the straight cantrips.

And this goes back to the point elsewhere - everyone has at-wills so they can always contribute, and those with less limited-resource boosts get better at-wills. The warlock gets less then other full casters, so their at-wills get a bit of a boost. That is part of the class balance, not part of the cantrip balance.

Sure, but using 22 (the average of 4d10) as the foundation for making the following claim...

A 1st level direct damage spell will almost always out damage any cantrip, regardless of the caster's level. The best you can hope for, the absolute best, is 4d10 with a cantrip. They don't ever get any better than that. Numerous 1st level spells, cast as a 1st level slot, will outdamage this.

... is deeply problematic, when in reality the "enhancement" goes way beyond a few points of damage here and there.

It remains a fact that it is trivial to nearly double this baseline damage of 22. You easily gain +20 from Agonizing Blast alone - a whopping 91% increase.

Note I did not bother to bring up the other ways you can enhance EB precisely because I concede your point.

But ignoring close to half the damage (48%) is sufficiently inaccurate that I felt the need to comment. As should be clear from the rest of the thread, this does not mean I am arguing against Hussar or for FrogReaver.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Sure, but using 22 (the average of 4d10) as the foundation for making the following claim...



... is deeply problematic, when in reality the "enhancement" goes way beyond a few points of damage here and there.

It remains a fact that it is trivial to nearly double this baseline damage of 22. You easily gain +20 from Agonizing Blast alone - a whopping 91% increase.

Note I did not bother to bring up the other ways you can enhance EB precisely because I concede your point.

But ignoring close to half the damage (48%) is sufficiently inaccurate that I felt the need to comment. As should be clear from the rest of the thread, this does not mean I am arguing against Hussar or for FrogReaver.

By the time a warlock is tossing 4d8+20, they don't have 1st level spells in 1st level slots, either. If you add the optional multiclassing rules, then the problem isn't cantrips vs spells but multiclassing shenanigans. It works out.

 

[Blue]

And now for something completely different. I want to bring up how another d20 game like 5e handles cantrip and spell scaling. This is from 13th Age by Jonathan Tweet and Rob Heinsoo, so it's got D&D DNA chops. It came out a bit before 5e.

There are a few parts. This uses spell selection like earlier editions where you pick spells in slots - not you have spells known/prepared and then can cast any combination of them using your slots.

Your number of spell slots grows slowly. A wizard starts at five at 1st level to twelve at the highest level. But these slots drift up through the spell levels. So a 1st level character has five 1st level slots, a 3rd level character has only three 1st level slots but four slots of the next level up. At the highest class level, you have NINE slots of the highest spell level, and three slots of the level before it.

Every spell scales up based on slot, and stays competitive with higher level spells.

Now onto cantrips - every spell is either At-Will, Per Encounter, or Per Day. (And some special cases). Spells you can use less frequently are more powerful. (Oh, 13th Age is balanced around 4 encounters per day.)

So if you want At-Will casting, it's for you on how many of your slots you want to pick at-will spells for flexibility. And what level. Use one of your highest level slots at your at-will is strong, but there's the opportunity cost of not having a per encounter (more powerful) or per-day (even more powerful) spell available.

So the power of all spells including at-will scale with level just because you don't actually have lower level slots anymore. And the choice of more nova vs. more at-will is up to the player.

 

[Dausuul]

It remains a fact that it is trivial to nearly double this baseline damage of 22. You easily gain +20 from Agonizing Blast alone - a whopping 91% increase.

Multiclassing warlock is not "trivial."

And if you were a warlock to begin with, the whole argument is moot since a 20th-level warlock doesn't have any 1st-level spell slots.