Why aren't these spells rituals?

[Yunru]

Really?

1. Yes, because they are that common. Every priest is going to be around 5th level, if not higher. (Proof: the Priest NPC stat block *is* a 5th level caster)

a. Yes, because feeding those in need is never brought up in any religion. Oh wait.

2. And who do you think will be buying that produce? See below.

3. Of course people don't enjoy it, but the peasantry don't get a choice. Apart from farms that service nobility, farm land is wasted land.

As for last time you looked around, see above where ordinary priests are 5th level casters able to cast Create Food and Water.

 

[Yunru]

So write it on a spell scroll.

Or have it as a magic item.

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

Those are some good points, Ganders, but most of them are easily fixed by limiting how often ritual spells might be used and what levels you could apply them to. Here are just a few suggestions:

1. Casters get a number of ritual spells equal to proficiency bonus per Short Rest (or Long, if Short is too many).
2. Tie the limit to 1 + ability score modifier for the class.
3. Limit it so that, like with Arcane Recovery, you can't use ritual casting on anything 6th-level or higher.
4. Tie it to the tiers: in Tier 1 you can cast any level 1 spell as a ritual, in Tier 2 you can cast any level 2 spell as a ritual, Tier 3 for 3rd-level spells, and Tier 4 for 4th-level spells.

Those are the ones that just spring to mind.

 

[FrogReaver]

Most of those I could see but there's a few that shouldn't:
Rope Trick: One of the best healing spells of 2nd level, and you want it to castable for free?
[Insert others when I wake up]

Rope Trick doesn't heal.

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

Really?

1. Yes, because they are that common. Every priest is going to be around 5th level, if not higher. (Proof: the Priest NPC stat block *is* a 5th level caster)

That is game-world specific and might be true in your games, but not in mine. In every world I have ever run, most of the general populace are not mid-level or higher. Yours may differ, but then that is your choice.

a. Yes, because feeding those in need is never brought up in any religion. Oh wait.

Most of those in need aren't unless there is a famine or something. Give a man a fish and you feed him, teach him to fish and he feeds himself. I think that was from religion somewhere... but, meh, maybe I am wrong.

2. And who do you think will be buying that produce? See below.

All the people who want a variety of food and have other things that they do with their time, like merchants, smiths, skilled artisans, etc.

3. Of course people don't enjoy it, but the peasantry don't get a choice. Apart from farms that service nobility, farm land is wasted land.

Of course they have a choice, it is called FARMING! What will most of them be doing with their time if they aren't farming and providing for the lord and his lands?

As for last time you looked around, see above where ordinary priests are 5th level casters able to cast Create Food and Water.

LOL, I love what you consider and "ordinary" priest. So, in your world any village priest is automatically powerful enough to perform miracles, like walking on water?

 

[Mistwell]

I think an expanded rituals feat is in order. The feat would add additional spells to be rituals, require that you be a ritual caster already to take the feat, and perhaps add additional requirements like expending a HD to cast an added ritual spell.

 

[Yardiff]

Arent spells only cast at the base level when using it as a ritual?

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I think that you might be focusing a little too much on raw power as the only factor, rather than including elements important to the group such as versatility and spotlight time.

Increasing the number of spells usable as rituals would be making ritual spellcasters, (and wizards to an even greater extent) considerably more powerful. 5e has come a long way in terms of balance, but I've yet to hear a good argument for Wizards being underpowered in the current rules.

Increasing rituals would reduce mundane skill use within the party: Many spells automatically accomplish things that would otherwise need ability checks. Currently the fighter and rogue may get their chance to shine out of combat to scale a wall because the spellcasters want to conserve spell slots rather than just casting Fly for example.

The current spell system is designed to make spellcasters think about when and where to use spells. Using a spell slot on a utility spell is supposed to be a decision that the player must make balanced against the possibility that they might need it later on.

Making many more spells into rituals will increase the wizard's spotlight time and overshadow the non-casters even more. It will also make ritual casters more powerful by having more spell slots to burn in combat rather than having to conserve or use them for the out of combat utility use that the system assumes.

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

I think that you might be focusing a little too much on raw power as the only factor, rather than including elements important to the group such as versatility and spotlight time.

Increasing the number of spells usable as rituals would be making ritual spellcasters, (and wizards to an even greater extent) considerably more powerful. 5e has come a long way in terms of balance, but I've yet to hear a good argument for Wizards being underpowered in the current rules.

Increasing rituals would reduce mundane skill use within the party: Many spells automatically accomplish things that would otherwise need ability checks. Currently the fighter and rogue may get their chance to shine out of combat to scale a wall because the spellcasters want to conserve spell slots rather than just casting Fly for example.

The current spell system is designed to make spellcasters think about when and where to use spells. Using a spell slot on a utility spell is supposed to be a decision that the player must make balanced against the possibility that they might need it later on.

Making many more spells into rituals will increase the wizard's spotlight time and overshadow the non-casters even more. It will also make ritual casters more powerful by having more spell slots to burn in combat rather than having to conserve or use them for the out of combat utility use that the system assumes.

Valid points. My only argument would be about in combat. Rituals take 10+ minutes, so would unlikely ever be used then. Even then, though, it might mean the casters in my group would do a bit more than sling cantrips all the time...

 

[Yunru]

That is game-world specific and might be true in your games, but not in mine. In every world I have ever run, most of the general populace are not mid-level or higher. Yours may differ, but then that is your choice.

No, it's true in every game that uses default assumptions. Also 5th level isn't "mid-level or higher." Remember, 3rd level is "passed training."

Most of those in need aren't unless there is a famine or something. Give a man a fish and you feed him, teach him to fish and he feeds himself. I think that was from religion somewhere... but, meh, maybe I am wrong.

Except you're failing to account for the consequences of your actions. By making Create Food and Water so available, you eliminate the need for farming as anything but a luxury.

All the people who want a variety of food and have other things that they do with their time, like merchants, smiths, skilled artisans, etc.

So the wealthy and the nobles. As I said.

Of course they have a choice, it is called FARMING! What will most of them be doing with their time if they aren't farming and providing for the lord and his lands?

Who said they weren't providing for the lord and his land? But they won't be farming for the peasantry, why would a lord waste his land on luxury for the peasants?

LOL, I love what you consider and "ordinary" priest. So, in your world any village priest is automatically powerful enough to perform miracles, like walking on water?

It's not what I consider an ordinary priest, it's the base assumption of the game. And yes I do, because they're not miracles. Not in a world as steeped with magic as DnD.