Why aren't these spells rituals?

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

Yunru, obviously we will never agree on this. I could refute each point you make with a logical argument against it and we could go back-and-forth endlessly, but there is no purpose in it.

I have already shown why this is not "devastating" to the game as was originally proposed in the other post. I have also provided numerous ways to curtail ritual casting for people who don't want it all the time as shown in my other posts.

 

[Yunru]

Yunru, obviously we will never agree on this. I could refute each point you make with a logical argument against it and we could go back-and-forth endlessly, but there is no purpose in it.

I have already shown why this is not "devastating" to the game as was originally proposed in the other post. I have also provided numerous ways to curtail ritual casting for people who don't want it all the time as shown in my other posts.

Sure, but the mere fact that you then have to restrict rituals to the point where existing rituals don't work the same... that shows that it's clearly too powerful. After all, there's no need for it with vanilla.

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

Sure, but the mere fact that you then have to restrict rituals to the point where existing rituals don't work the same... that shows that it's clearly too powerful. After all, there's no need for it with vanilla.

Sigh...

I never said anything about restricting spells that already have the ritual tag. My comment was about expanding ritual castings for non-ritual spells and limiting those if a DM feels they would be too powerful otherwise.

 

[Yunru]

Sigh...

I never said anything about restricting spells that already have the ritual tag. My comment was about expanding ritual castings for non-ritual spells and limiting those if a DM feels they would be too powerful otherwise.

Eh, that might work.
But you never answered my first point:
If you're going to make ritual casters even better, why would anyone play anything else?

 

[billd91]

No, it's true in every game that uses default assumptions. Also 5th level isn't "mid-level or higher." Remember, 3rd level is "passed training."

I would recommend that you don't assume that every character in a setting must match a stat block provided for the DM's convenience in the Monster Manual.

Except you're failing to account for the consequences of your actions. By making Create Food and Water so available, you eliminate the need for farming as anything but a luxury.

I would also recommend that you don't assume that there are sufficient numbers (and distribution) of 5th level priests in a campaign to make this even remotely possible.

That said, I still wouldn't make create food and water a ritual. Doing so obviates the need for PCs to care about nutritional resource management as soon as the spell is known. As it is, devoting a spell slot to it is extremely forgiving within the system already. I don't have a lot of sympathy overall for powerful spell casters whining about managing their spell slot resources - that's the price you pay for the power and convenience of magic.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Valid points. My only argument would be about in combat. Rituals take 10+ minutes, so would unlikely ever be used then. Even then, though, it might mean the casters in my group would do a bit more than sling cantrips all the time...

The additional combat power for casters under your suggestion would not be through casting rituals in combat, but through having more spell slots to burn in combat, because they don't use any actual spell slots outside combat.

1. Yes, because they are that common. Every priest is going to be around 5th level, if not higher. (Proof: the Priest NPC stat block *is* a 5th level caster)

As for last time you looked around, see above where ordinary priests are 5th level casters able to cast Create Food and Water.

Just to clarify: You're arguing that all communities should have a 5th level caster in them because all communities will have a temple or shrine big enough to warrant a full-fledged Priest in them?

And you're getting this from the fact that there is a Monster Manual entry for an example Priest that is a 5th level spellcaster.

If you have the flexibility to change that statblock to include the ability to cast Create Food and Water, surely it is not too far a logical leap to consider the existence of religious caretakers of different levels? Call them holy men or something if the word "priest" is going to create too much mental dissonance for you perhaps?

 

[Yunru]

The additional combat power for casters under your suggestion would not be through casting rituals in combat, but through having more spell slots to burn in combat, because they don't use any actual spell slots outside combat.

Just to clarify: You're arguing that all communities should have a 5th level caster in them because all communities will have a temple or shrine big enough to warrant a full-fledged Priest in them?

And you're getting this from the fact that there is a Monster Manual entry for an example Priest that is a 5th level spellcaster.

If you have the flexibility to change that statblock to include the ability to cast Create Food and Water, surely it is not too far a logical leap to consider the existence of religious caretakers of different levels? Call them holy men or something if the word "priest" is going to create too much mental dissonance for you perhaps?

Yes actually, I do. From the description provided, they're the head figure at most given temples (I say most because bigger temples might have stronger priests), while the rest are just acolytes.

"Priests bring the teachings of their gods to the Common folk. They are the spiritual leaders of temples and shrines and often hold positions of influence in their communities. Evil Priests might work openly under a tyrant, or they might be the leaders of religious sects hidden in the shadows of good society, overseeing depraved rites.

A Priest typically has one or more acolytes to help with religious ceremonies and other sacred duties."

 

[MarkB]

Yes actually, I do. From the description provided, they're the head figure at most given temples (I say most because bigger temples might have stronger priests), while the rest are just acolytes.

"Priests bring the teachings of their gods to the Common folk. They are the spiritual leaders of temples and shrines and often hold positions of influence in their communities. Evil Priests might work openly under a tyrant, or they might be the leaders of religious sects hidden in the shadows of good society, overseeing depraved rites.

A Priest typically has one or more acolytes to help with religious ceremonies and other sacred duties."

You do understand that the NPCs in the Monster Manual are just representative examples, right? That entry does not in any way state that all priests in all communities are identical 5th-level characters, and it most definitely doesn't set 5th level as the minimum requirement for qualifying as a priest.

Are all NPC mages in your setting 9th-level, and all druids 4th-level?

 

[Yunru]

You do understand that the NPCs in the Monster Manual are just representative examples, right? That entry does not in any way state that all priests in all communities are identical 5th-level characters, and it most definitely doesn't set 5th level as the minimum requirement for qualifying as a priest.

Are all NPC mages in your setting 9th-level, and all druids 4th-level?

Not at all, but that'll be either the most common, or the minimum level they'll occur, depending on how closely what they can do is tied to their name.

But we're getting off topic: The fact they exist as level 5 spellcasters that are merely leaders of shrines and temples sets a bar for the general level of trained clergy.

 

[MarkB]

Not at all, but that'll be either the most common, or the minimum level they'll occur, depending on how closely what they can do is tied to their name.

But we're getting off topic: The fact they exist as level 5 spellcasters that are merely leaders of shrines and temples sets a bar for the general level of trained clergy.

This is your personal interpretation of how to use those statblocks. Entertain the possibility that it's not a common one.